What If You Told the Truth? How Vulnerability Became Jing Foon Yu’s Superpower

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From Amsterdam to art school, from corporate design to poetic activism—Jing Foon Yu has always asked the hard questions. But when she started asking them of herself, everything changed. 
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In this deeply honest episode- hosted by Heather Crank-- Jing opens up about her battle with depression, the creation of Crybaby, and the journey from silence to sovereignty.
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If you’ve ever burned out, felt ashamed and disconnected—and asked, “What now?” this is for you.
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Connect with Jing: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jingfoonyu/
Learn More/Purchase Crybaby: https://www.jingeling.nl/product/crybaby-poetry-book/

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:03:15
Unknown
Welcome to the Developing Life podcast.

00:00:03:17 - 00:00:34:21
Tru Adams
Today, we are privileged to have Jing Foon Yu. An innovator in design and a poignant voice in literature whose personal journey and professional endeavors converge to redefine creativity. Ying, the author of crybaby and an acclaimed designer, delves into the realms of feminism, diversity and inclusion through her multifaceted career. From her early days as a painter, Ying transitioned into design and innovations facilitation, continually pushing the boundaries of traditional creative roles.

00:00:34:23 - 00:01:04:14
Tru Adams
She is also known for leading transformative workshops that engage and empower communities, further demonstrating her impact and leadership. Her poetry book, crybaby, reflects a raw and vulnerable exploration of generational trauma and inner child healing, blending her artistic and emotional insights with deep storytelling, a work that not only embodies spirit, but her commitment to emotional and social healing. With our host, Heather Krank.

00:01:04:20 - 00:01:32:18
Tru Adams
Jing will unpack the complex layers of her experiences, from navigating burnout and therapy to finding resilience in high performance careers. Sharing how these elements shaped her perspective on leadership, and design a conversation that will be sure to inspire the courage to create. Reshaping the way we apply creative thinking to reinvent our own context and character. Thank you to welcome Jing.

00:01:32:19 - 00:02:00:23
Heather Crank
It's so nice to have you on the podcast. Hello, Heather. Thank you for having me. Of course. So I met you in Chris Do's feature group. Man, was it 2 or 3 years ago now. And we were in this cohort together, and I've gotten to know you over the years, and you are a passionate feminist. You like to advocate for diversity and inclusion.

00:02:01:01 - 00:02:30:04
Heather Crank
My first question right off the bat is, how did this, show up in your life and work? Well, that's a deep question to start out with. Let's be honest, actually, I think one of my first art project, when I was in high school was about, It was about, using condoms, actually, it was literally, literally what it was.

00:02:30:04 - 00:03:27:23
Jing Foon Yu
I think I was 16, I made this whole poster campaign about safe sex. And and then I went to college, and I started working, and all my activist, this person, I think it actually snowed under. I when I worked for commercial companies, I worked for finance companies, for publishing companies, for ad agencies, a very short stint and for design companies and, and it wasn't until I went back to, to study graphic design at the Royal College of Art that I actually started when they gave me briefs, I automatically started to do projects that are social relative or, talk about the rights for people in general, or, so my activist

00:03:28:03 - 00:04:00:14
Jing Foon Yu
muscle was stimulated during college, but then again, after college, I started working again full time, and still it was gone. And it wasn't until I think it was literally I was awakened again during a conference that I was technically hosting for a DUI, a leadership, lady here in the Netherlands. It was a two day conference, and it wasn't until then that she actually, she had so much knowledge.

00:04:00:14 - 00:04:26:22
Jing Foon Yu
And I was behind the scenes, right? I was behind the scenes helping her out and making sure that everything went okay for her. But while doing it, I listened to her stories and I listened to her. It densify how you can see exclusion or, microaggression and and I was like, oh my God, she's talking about my experiences.

00:04:27:00 - 00:05:00:14
Jing Foon Yu
And it was that was a pivotal moment for me to say, okay, I've done all these social, activists relative projects when I, in my spare time, weren't doing college. So why don't I do this at work? And if I would do that work, how might these look like? So I slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly project by project.

00:05:00:16 - 00:05:30:14
Jing Foon Yu
I pivoted, as in, how can I get my work to be social, engaging and relative for community, for the people, for women? And that's actually where I am now. So now I actually even see on my website, I see if you if you, if you have a projects that is not for people and for planet, don't call me unless you say it out loud.

00:05:30:16 - 00:06:04:05
Jing Foon Yu
I say, don't call me, please don't call me. Call me only when you have a project. That's benefit that benefits the greater good. So that's how I actually pivoted. And now this year, because I realize that the position of women in general, hasn't gone better. Actually, it's from the feminist. The feminist wave actually went up and I think it's it's going down the last couple of years.

00:06:04:06 - 00:06:31:10
Jing Foon YuAnd, so for this year, I'm just telling to the universe and to my project, clients to say, hey, I would love to do projects, for or about women. I'm specifically interested in women's health, because of my own journey. Do you have anything that you can set my way? So that's what I'm loosely asking and saying it out loud.

00:06:31:12 - 00:07:23:03
Heather Crank
Yeah. So for people who aren't familiar with, what feminist feminism is, can you give me your definition? Oh, so I'm not a scholar. I, I'm designer. So my personal, personal, opinion about this is that, women should have equal rights, as male. So whether it's about, production rights or your health, your mental health, whether it's about wages or, or where you live or what work you do, it's actually it's all encompassing that because I believe when women have equal rights, society benefits.

00:07:23:03 - 00:07:55:17
Jing Foon Yu
That's what I believe. You know, love that. So you're in Amsterdam and you're now running your own business. How did you transition into being an entrepreneur? That's a great story, actually. So when I, so I started graphic design. That was my second study. So second, bachelor program. So that's because when I, I worked as a junior designer and didn't know shit.

00:07:55:18 - 00:08:19:18
Jing Foon Yu
So, so I ran into all these problems that I could not, clarify or justify my design decisions. So I went back to school, so I'm like, okay, so I need to go back to school. So I studied at night doing, like, graphic design. Bachelor. And when I finished, I thought, well, now, now I know everything about design, right?

00:08:19:20 - 00:08:56:00
Jing Foon Yu
So I started working and I started working in several companies. And the last company that I actually worked as an employee was a financial, company in the heart of the financial district in Amsterdam. And I remember that, there was one day when I actually walked in there and, that my colleague at the communications department actually was ready for me, and he gave me this brief, a typed up A4 white paper, brief.

00:08:56:02 - 00:09:19:19
Jing Foon Yu
And he and he has made this brief, and he says, okay, this is the brief for today. I want you to read it and to make exactly what it says there. Don't you come and ask me any of your difficult questions. Well, just go and make it and I'll see the result at 5:00. And I think you're. You're kidding, right?

00:09:19:19 - 00:09:42:07
Jing Foon Yu
I mean, that's such a good joke. You almost have me. And so I was like, so I have a question about his brief. And he went like, no, you're not giving me more of your difficult questions. I'm so fed up with your questions. I want you to just go back to your desk and sit down and just do it.

00:09:42:09 - 00:10:09:01
Jing Foon Yu
Everything you need is on that piece of paper. And I was like, wow, you're really not. So he was really not kidding. So I walked back to my desk. I sat down, so we were on the 23rd floor. It's one of the highest buildings in the in the financial district. It was a clear day. Clouds were passing by, so there was nothing going on except.

00:10:09:03 - 00:10:32:16
Jing Foon Yu
So my colleague asked me not to think any more. That's how I interpreted. If I can't ask any questions, I'm not allowed to think. And I also knew that he got a promotion. So after the Christmas holiday, he was going to be my boss. So that means literally, how do I see my future in this company if I were not allowed to ask any more questions?

00:10:32:18 - 00:11:02:04
Jing Foon Yu
So I sit down and I thought and I thought, but I really if I learned anything at, the Royal College of Art was answers. Don't get me much further. It's questions where it will pique your interest, your curiosity. It will actually make me a better designer. The question is, make me a better designer. So what does it mean if I'm not allowed to ask any questions anymore?

00:11:02:06 - 00:11:29:22
Jing Foon Yu
So I'll go like. Oh, okay. So I didn't know what to do, didn't finish the brief, but we went home, slept on it and the next day I handed in my resignation letter. Wow. And since then, I actually turn myself. I call myself a strategic design facilitator. I ask difficult questions for a living. Oh, my God, I love it, I love it.

00:11:29:22 - 00:12:00:03
Heather Crank
So that whole really difficult experience actually was the ignition for your new career? Oh, yes. Definitely. Because, that discussion or did not discussion that what that meant. My colleague at the time taught me two things. One, apparently I was not capable in explaining what the added bonus was. Our design. So he only saw it as a wrapping paper tool.

00:12:00:05 - 00:12:25:15
Jing Foon Yu
And, so I didn't know how to communicate the value of. So that was one. And number two is because he actually told me not to ask any more questions. I never realized how questions are important for me as a person to develop, to make better decisions to, you know, well, actually do anything in life. Right?

00:12:25:17 - 00:12:49:07
Jing Foon Yu
So, I actually value it much more than before because before that it was granted. It's normal that you can ask questions at least. Well, sometimes, at least in this world where I live in, it's it's normal. But the minute that people are telling you not to do it anymore, you go like, hey, what's the value of those questions for me?

00:12:49:07 - 00:13:17:02
Jing Foon Yu
What does it mean if I can't ask questions or can't ask any questions? Yeah. I mean, it's true when you're asking questions during that process of learning and discovery and versus having all the answers, you kind of stop growing. Yes, yes. So that's basically what I thought to myself, I, I when I, I think I have a good set of brain or head on my shoulders, let's use it right.

00:13:17:02 - 00:13:42:02
Jing Foon Yu
Let's use it. So how can I use it? So from that point on, I started doing courses in design thinking, in design sprints, in facilitation, because I also realized graphic design. Most people saw it as the lost end of a whole process. Right. All the strategic decisions are made way up the line, not down the line. I was down the line.

00:13:42:02 - 00:14:08:16
Jing Foon Yu
Graphic design was seen as the last stop before it went to market. So I just edited I if I want to, make sure that I was happy with the content as well, not only the wrapping paper, I should move up the line. So, the design process where actually ideas are being formed or tested or thought off or.

00:14:08:18 - 00:14:36:03
Heather Crank
So that's what I did there. Okay. So if you're you're running your own business, how did you end up in the Future Pro group. What what were the steps that led to, connecting with Christo? Actually, I was looking for, so I just started, right, without knowing anything. Oh, wow. I well, I did some freelance work, so that was good.

00:14:36:03 - 00:14:59:12
Jing Foon Yu
So, after that, after college, I did some freelance work, so. And, so I had small clients. So when I actually stopped, my employment, I already had a couple of freelance clients, so I just, when I could just pick it up from there, I had some. I was in a privileged position. Let me say it at first, because I had some savings in the bank.

00:14:59:14 - 00:15:27:08
Jing Foon Yu
My husband was working a full time job, in employment as well. So. So there was no financial stress at that point. So allowed me to see what what I could do. That allowed me also to, to find, courses or things or talk to people to see what I was interested in. But I also realize, I studied design, not business.

00:15:27:10 - 00:15:56:20
Jing Foon Yu
So how do you run, exactly? I mean, do you run your own company? Right? I had no idea. So I was just, like, winging it or. Or pretending that I knew. And so I, I roamed YouTube and and Google to see. Okay, how do other people, how do you actually make a, proposal or how do you actually get clients?

00:15:56:22 - 00:16:20:06
Jing Foon Yu
And, I saw a couple of most of them. There were dudes, to be honest, most of the time the people are talking about business are dudes. But. But Chris was the first one on the intersection of design and business. And for me, he was also a role model because he was also the first Asian person I saw talking about this.

00:16:20:08 - 00:16:42:12
Jing Foon Yu
And, there are not many people talking about design and business at that time. When I actually found Chris, I think I think about for about 4 or 5 years ago, and also for me, it was a plus that he was Asian because it was like, hey, there's a guy who looks a little bit about me, a little bit there.

00:16:42:14 - 00:17:18:13
Jing Foon Yu
He's Vietnamese, I'm Chinese heritage. And I, I like to read what he says, and how he brought it. So and so I joined a pro group, and it was a very warm, welcoming community. I agree. Yeah. And okay. So so you're in Christos group and, and then you write you posted this quote online about burnout and I'm just going to read it a little bit of it to you.

00:17:18:15 - 00:17:50:02
Jing Foon Yu
And then I would love to hear, how you felt going through this and sort of your, reason for posting this. So you posted I've already had two burnout episodes before I was 32, went to a coach when I was 40 and have had a therapist for the last five years or six years. It took all this depression and 46 years before I learned what it was.

00:17:50:04 - 00:18:19:08
Heather Crank
So can can you speak to that a little bit? The first two, because I. Yeah. Why did I, I posted actually posted that on my birthday. Oh you did, I did, I did, I posted it on my birthday because I turned 47 this year. I think I was. Almost non, I almost like it wasn't on socials that much last year.

00:18:19:10 - 00:18:46:01
Jing Foon Yu
And, and also when I went actually. So last year I had a big depression. I went through a big depression, took about one and a half years and I posted very, very little on LinkedIn. So I only, posted a couple of things on my Instagram. But on LinkedIn, most people didn't know about it. And, I was scared.

00:18:46:03 - 00:19:14:03
Jing Foon Yu
I was scared to post it on LinkedIn because I was like, okay, on LinkedIn, all the people that I work with, what would these people think of me and what would they say? And would they still hire somebody who confessed to have burnout and depression? And then I was like, so for the longest time, I didn't I didn't write anything about my state of mind, about my mental health on LinkedIn.

00:19:14:05 - 00:19:57:04
Jing Foon Yu
For a long time. And then on my birthday, I woke up at 7 a.m. and I went like, you know, this is it. I mean. This is who I am. I can't, I can't claim to be this whole. Or wish chipper always smiling person. I'm not only that person. I'm also that person. But there's also a deeper, darker side of me that most people don't know of because I wasn't willing to share.

00:19:57:06 - 00:20:22:03
Jing Foon Yu
I wasn't comfortable in sharing. The good thing of reaching the age of 47 or 40s in general, I don't know, but other people actually recognize this is that I start to care less about what other people think. So, so a you know what? I'm just going to I'm just going to blur that, just going to say it.

00:20:22:05 - 00:20:56:02
Heather Crank
Yeah. So okay, so we're going to start there. And then I'd like to move into. So you post online you're being vulnerable for the first time. And you're also working on this book called crybaby and Crybaby from what I understand is more about your personal history. And as you write about it, generational trauma. So I'd like to talk about why you wrote crybaby.

00:20:56:04 - 00:21:29:15
Heather Crank
What you hope to get from putting this out into the world. And, what you would like other people to understand specifically about you? First of all, I was never, ever planning to write a book, but when, when I broke down, like, hard, I like I reached I don't know what level and so my house has a minus one level.

00:21:29:17 - 00:22:02:07
Jing Foon Yu
I think I reached minus ten level. Wow. And the only thing that I could do was like. Just lay Lee down just on a sofa, on bed. I didn't do much. Suddenly I got, like, all these words bubbling up in me. So the thing is, I, I grew up in the Netherlands. So I speak Dutch with my kids and with my husband.

00:22:02:07 - 00:22:33:01
Jing Foon Yu
Or Dutch. Chinese with the kids. At least I try. And, but the words that came bubbling up in my head were all English. All English words. I tried to ignore them for a couple of days and somehow they wouldn't go away. And there was more coming. I felt it was this, like, overflowing. Well, so I, I remember distinctively asking myself, this question or it's a choice.

00:22:33:06 - 00:23:02:07
Jing Foon Yu
A while ago, remember that I gave myself the choice. Am I going to ignore this, lock it away and pretend it's not there or am I going to write it down? And I felt the, I felt the words that were coming up were really dark or terrible words that I wasn't even let myself allowed to think these words, let alone write them down.

00:23:02:07 - 00:23:27:09
Jing Foon Yu
But on the other hand, not writing them down and ignoring them and locking them away as good as I could. I felt that was even the more darker choice. So, I wrote them down, but literally how I wrote it down was I grabbed a book, just a ordinary sketchbook. I wrote them down, turned page and closed the book.

00:23:27:11 - 00:24:05:18
Jing Foon Yu
I did not reread them because I felt them the worst. So awful, so, so awful, so hurts, so depressing, so yeah. How do you see? Not evil, but like, dark, dark, dark, dark thoughts and, And I judged myself for it. I judged myself for thinking these thoughts, writing these words. Writing them down. But still I keep going.

00:24:05:18 - 00:24:36:17
Jing Foon Yu
So every single time something bubbled up, I wrote them down, turned a page closed book. And I kept going. And it took me about like three months. And I wrote about 200 poems. I still haven't read them by that time because there were just too much, you know? You know how how. I don't know if somebody else could relate, but sometimes it's very difficult for to hear yourself or see yourself on television or on camera or whatever we doing now?

00:24:36:19 - 00:25:04:15
Jing Foon Yu
Yes. And, it's even worse for the deep, dark thoughts that I wrote down. It was it was that bad? So I wrote them down. I didn't look at them. And then, actually, I, I sent one friend because, a friend of mine, she's a poet. So I sent one friend of mine, I send her one poem.

00:25:04:17 - 00:25:26:04
Jing Foon Yu
Just what? Just one. The first one that I wrote. And she immediately texted back, and she goes, like, where's the rest of the book? And I go like, wow, whoa. I was like, wow, no way in hell am I going to make a book out of this. That's what I told myself, because a girl like, what do you mean?

00:25:26:04 - 00:25:50:23
Jing Foon Yu
A book who wants to read is depressing shit. I mean, it's very depressing if it's. I mean, you're not going to read this book for kicks or for laughs or for joy starts. It's not a warm love story and saga. It's a book. Book. You're being ridiculous, I said, so I ignored it, but then in my head goes like I.

00:25:51:01 - 00:26:24:12
Jing Foon Yu
I remember asking myself the question, the what if question. What if, what if, what if I would make a book out of this? How would that look like? And I gave myself permission to walk around with that thought, with that question, what if? What if I show one other person a porn? Well, what if I if I start showing just one person, one other person?

00:26:24:14 - 00:26:52:06
Jing Foon Yu
And I was still not very convinced about it, so I did show it to another person. And he, he was English. So that's a native English speaker. And for me, it was one way to check whether these poems made sense for English speaking people. I'm not a non-native. And, and he said, wow, you said this at 11:00 at night, and they're so disturbing.

00:26:52:06 - 00:27:13:06
Jing Foon Yu
I couldn't sleep anymore. So I went like, oh, I'm sorry about that, but how's the English? I mean, like, what do you mean, how's English? Your English is fine. Oh, I were like, okay. It didn't know if it really translated well in Nepal. So I walked around with this question, what if, what if? And I finally, picked up the book by Brené Brown.

00:27:13:08 - 00:27:47:21
Jing Foon Yu
And it's called Atlas of the heart. And there she maps out all these different emotions that we have. And I looked up shame because I felt so much shame around this topic. Like, like excruciating, much shame around this topic. And I looked up, shamed. And Brené Brown, the wise Brené Brown said. Shame. Develops and gets bigger if you want to ignore the topic.

00:27:47:21 - 00:28:18:03
Jing Foon Yu
If you try to hide the topic, if you try to pretend it's not there, then shame is only getting bigger and bigger and bigger. The antidote to shame is to give it light, to give it air, to show it, to tell people about it. To. Yeah. Like actually just let's literally give it light and air and I'm like, oh wow.

00:28:18:05 - 00:28:42:08
Jing Foon Yu
So I had this book on my lap. It's a very heavy book. And I, I really read what you wrote. And I was like, shit, what does this mean? Well, I know one thing I want. Like, I'm already feeling heavy because of the shame that are carrying around. And according to this expert, it's only getting bigger if I don't do anything about it.

00:28:42:10 - 00:29:18:00
Jing Foon Yu
So I was like, okay, what does she do? See that I need to do? And I went, okay. For me, it meant I'm going to just start sharing it on Instagram, on my Instagram profile. That's what I did. I started posting things on Instagram, which still felt really small to me. It's a small group of people who react, so it still felt relatively safe from that one on point on every single time I wasn't sure, I let myself walk around with a question what if?

00:29:18:02 - 00:29:57:04
Jing Foon Yu
And then I, I see myself fantasizing about how it might look like. Or, what people would I use, or what colors or what illustration would go with that? Or and suddenly, after a whole lot of what if questions. There's this book. Wow. Elsa, I have got a book. Well, it's not suddenly, but it still feels like surreal that I actually made a book out of this very dark, personal, emotional poems.

00:29:57:06 - 00:30:35:07
Heather Crank
Do you feel now that you've publishes that some of the weight of the shame has come off? Yes. Yes. Because the see, the thing is I can talk to people about it now. Better not. It's not easier. Definitely not. I mean I'm still traveling around with my because some tissue books of crybaby, but it's so it's not easier, but it's, I made it lighter for myself because I put it in a book.

00:30:35:09 - 00:31:08:17
Jing Foon Yu
And, and also because of the courage that I had in sharing it somehow. And I trust it to the, the pages and, and also I'll let the designer and illustrator evening. Play with it. Right. So that makes it lighter. But because beforehand play was never to be found near, near the diary that I had.

00:31:08:19 - 00:31:42:16
Jing Foon Yu
But the moment that I actually decided to publish stuff online, I started making illustrations or animations to go with them. So it's, it's I somehow there's a sense of humor crept in, although these things are still very dark and very heavy, but there's well, at least for me, there's a sense of lightness to it now, which makes it bearable.

00:31:42:18 - 00:32:06:07
Jing Foon Yu
Yeah. I had a friend once who used to tell me, you have to have or you don't have to, but it's a good idea to have tea with your inner monsters. And make friends with them. Yeah. Because they want to be seen as much as you want to hide them. Yes. I think that's such a beautiful illustration of that.

00:32:06:07 - 00:32:44:19
Jing Foon Yu
And I love the playfulness that you brought in with the illustrations. I think with just the writing. It's very beautiful but very intense in the illustrations. Give it this whole different expression and it's so beautiful. Thank you Heather. I just love it. Hot. I love it when you see that. Yeah. Because the thing is, you know, it's such this book was such a, I don't know, just probably a word for an all encompassing total design project because I wrote it, I designed it, I illustrated it, I published it.

00:32:44:21 - 00:33:10:23
Jing Foon Yu
So it's this, this crazy spin that you're you're in being this. Yeah. Really a total design project that actually I couldn't let go. And somehow when I finished the book, it was just only the beginning. Although I thought, oh, God, now I'm going to lay down because I've got a book. Right? Right now it's, it's only starting.

00:33:10:23 - 00:33:36:20
Jing Foon Yu
Its own. Starting for me to tell more people about it. And you ask me from what do people what do I want people to take away with it? And the thing what I did not know is well this book is about trauma. It's about inner child trauma and specifically about emotional neglect as a, as a child.

00:33:36:22 - 00:34:06:16
Jing Foon Yu
I did not know it was a thing because I grew up in a Chinese family. My parents fled Communist China. They fled to Hong Kong. And then they found some way somewhere, some angels actually help them to get to the Netherlands. And they settled here and they made a living. I have four siblings, so with five kids.

00:34:06:18 - 00:34:34:02
Jing Foon Yu
And we all went to school. We always had some good, a warm bed, a roof, went to college and education. So there's a big part of me that says, what the hell are you whining about? You know, no big deal. No big deal. I kept repeating that for the longest time. No big deal. There's no big deal.

00:34:34:02 - 00:35:04:22
Jing Foon Yu
What do you mean? So what if your parents were working all the time? So? So what? You. You went to your graduation and your diplomas and your matches and your school exhibitions and your school rehearsals or everything. Everything. Everything you could think of alone. So what? I mean, there are worse things in this world, and that's completely true.

00:35:05:00 - 00:35:48:14
Jing Foon Yu
That's true. I mean, there are people far, far worse off. And that's for the longest time, I kept telling myself that because the rational person in me says that's all true. So it's no big deal. But it became a big deal when I had kids. My kids were really a mirror to me, and seeing how they are growing up and how I grew up, the difference was so stark that I found myself like on several occasions, so jealous of my own kids that I could not I could not bear the sight of them.

00:35:48:16 - 00:36:12:14
Jing Foon Yu
Wow, I was so jealous. There was this one occasion when, the oldest had, graduation, swimming, getting his swimming diploma. And here in the Netherlands is this whole festive thing where parents, grandparents, family, everybody comes to cheer their medals. There are photographers, there's candy, there's cake, you know, it's a big thing. It's like, yeah, graduation from school.

00:36:12:14 - 00:36:41:11
Jing Foon Yu
So they get the swimming diploma. And I was sitting there next to the pool with my socks off and, cold, wet feet on the on the tiles in this, this warm, steamy, hot, swimming pool. And I was very proud. I mean, he did his very best. And he's getting his, deployment. But I was sitting there and just out of the blue, just within a second, I changed completely.

00:36:41:11 - 00:37:15:02
Jing Foon Yu
I felt myself being becoming heavy and angry and tired and jealous. So much envy. It was so much envy. And I was pissed off of the of the people next to me. I was pissed off at the grandparents at the right of me. I was just pissed off with everybody and I was so, so jealous. I was sitting there, I was fuming, I was fuming, and then my son swims by any waves.

00:37:15:02 - 00:37:22:17
Jing Foon Yu
I couldn't even wave back. I was so pissed off.

00:37:22:19 - 00:38:13:21
Jing Foon Yu
And only later, when it actually left the swimming pool, I realized that was not the adult me being completely pissed off at that pool. Being jealous at my own kid. That was my inner child. Me, the the younger kid in me, that also wished that somebody came to see her, getting her swimming diploma and having her family and friends cheering for her instead of cycling along to the to her swimming graduation, where all her friends are surrounded by loving family and you're the only one by yourself, and you're also the only one going home alone.

00:38:13:23 - 00:38:45:09
Jing Foon Yu
So yeah, I kept telling myself for the longest time, it's no big deal. But my inner child disagrees completely and it it was. Those were one of the occasions that she actually let me know so loud that that she completely took over. She took over the adult me at that time. And it happened on several occasions. So it was affecting, me.

00:38:45:09 - 00:39:07:16
Jing Foon Yu
It was affecting my adult me. It was affecting the relationship that I had with my with my kids. It was effect in the relationship with my husband and with my friends. Because sometimes out of the blue, I came this pissed off, jealous, angry person for no apparent reason.

00:39:07:18 - 00:39:42:20
Jing Foon Yu
Yeah, and I still I still have to deal with that. So is it world? Is a world war trauma epic scale? No, but on a personal level, it still affects me so bad. Yeah, but I try. I see it now and recognize it more now. It happens less now because I. This is what you said, right? I'm drinking tea with my inner inner dark monsters.

00:39:42:22 - 00:40:07:10
Jing Foon Yu
Yeah. Yes. And it helps. Yeah, it does help because I finally realized what what I was missing. And I never knew that you could have, like, trauma wounds in your body. So something that you never knew never existed for something that you never had. People say, oh, you won't miss it because you never had it. But that's not true.

00:40:07:14 - 00:40:43:02
Heather Crank
I know now it's not true. Because I haven't had the love and care that I wanted as a kid that I was missing. You can have trauma and you can have burnout without any reason and somehow live in a state of fear and survival for the longest time. Yeah, it can. Oh I would given all of this, would you be willing to read a little excerpt from your book for us?

00:40:43:04 - 00:41:12:18
Jing Foon Yu
Yes, I'm going to read the title, poem. Okay. So my book is called crybaby. I don't know if you knew this, but, crybaby was the name that my siblings, my parents called me because I cried a lot when I was a kid, so, they called me crybaby.

00:41:12:20 - 00:41:45:05
Jing Foon Yu
Crybaby. Cry baby. Cry baby. Cries and cries all day long. Feeling the world wretched. Harold. Full of sorrow. Cry baby, cry baby. Cries and cries. Feeling the people alone. Afraid. Full of ghosts. One smack, two smacks. More smacks to make it stop. Cry baby cry. Baby cries and cries. Won't stop. Can't stop. Until she slowly hides. Deep, deep.

00:41:45:07 - 00:41:51:08
Jing Foon Yu
Buried deep.

00:41:51:10 - 00:42:29:18
Heather Crank
I love your writing, I love it, and I love your illustrations. I know this book right now is in Amsterdam. If people wanted to explore your work, how can they find you? You can order it on my website. It's, Yingling dot Anele. And, this year I'm actually trying to get it to more independent booksellers and, see if I can get stuff out to the U.S or to other places in the, in the world who might be interested.

00:42:29:20 - 00:42:56:21
Heather Crank
I love it. And my last question here for you, and then I'm going to open it up for a Q&A. Who are your role models, inspirations, or what are you reading right now? What I'm reading right now, I'm reading two books. I think I'll start with the one that makes me giggle out loud when I'm reading it in public transport.

00:42:56:22 - 00:43:31:16
Jing Foon Yu
I love this lady's work. It's called lobster. And she's a poet. Writer. Holic McNish. And she is English. And, You know something that you actually admire people because they're so smart and thoughtful and witty and, also with a good sense of self reflection, good dose, amount of sense of humor. There's a she and she has got this brilliant work ethic.

00:43:31:16 - 00:44:04:17
Jing Foon Yu
Lobster is her most recent book, that's published. I think she just, I think released one like last week, but I'm still reading this. And seriously, when I actually read this book in the public transport, I have to go out loud. It that it's that good because it's she talks about, in the sense of feminism. She talks about why in for there's a whole chapter of why in English people can't see vulva.

00:44:04:19 - 00:44:30:07
Jing Foon Yu
There's a whole chapter on it. And because if people say anything about it, they would say, for Gina, the vagina. Technically is only the part that's on the inner inner inside. Right? It's it's where where the baby comes out, actually. But vulva is the whole female lady's parts, and she goes like, so somehow people are have difficulties saying vulva.

00:44:30:08 - 00:44:56:21
Jing Foon Yu
So she wrote this whole script for people to practice saying not vulva. But she goes like, I'm letting you start slowly and gently. I'll let you say Volvo. So why won't you look under my Volvo hood? She has a mechanic. So? So ask a mechanic to check whether the Volvo is still running well. So say full voe. Check in mechanic.

00:44:56:23 - 00:45:45:20
Jing Foon Yu
So she has this whole script there, like pages of it. Script with how you can actually practice to say the word. The thing is, why she's so adamant. I concur of saying the words for all the parts on your body, saying the correct scientific name of the parts in your body is because if there's in any case, a, a well, how it say an iffy episode with people touching your body without your permission, and no matter how old or how young you are, especially with younger children, if you can't name it correctly, the authorities can't help.

00:45:45:22 - 00:46:16:15
Jing Foon Yu
So it's one of the reasons why, why I'm actually teaching my kid. My youngest is a girl is just to say vulva and vagina and breasts. All these things. And, I think it's very important. And she also makes the case for. Why is there all this slang for different for the, the, the guy's penis. And there's actually no slang for the vulva and that's she's asking all these questions and she makes me.

00:46:16:16 - 00:46:45:07
Jing Foon Yu
So it's not only about Lady Lady's parts in this book. But it's a hell of a read. Yes, yes. Oliver Reed. Yes. And I, I also would suspect that if you're able to say the words, it's the same thing about shame. If there's shame there, you're just bringing some levity into the shame and learning how to, get past it.

00:46:45:09 - 00:47:18:00
Jing Foon Yu
Yes, that's a good point, because there's, you know, same with my book. I was very reluctant in talking about it or writing it down even. It's, there is so much shame in stuff that's actually. I would almost say that shame is unnecessary. Wow. Because it. I think shame is something like a social trigger. I think it's a socially a social done thing.

00:47:18:02 - 00:47:45:03
Jing Foon Yu
I always wonder if, if we would feel the same shame around topics, if we would be alone on a tropical island, would we still feel the same shame about topics, about stuff that happens in your head, in your body, or the stuff that you're thinking? Isn't it a social construct to keep people small or to behave, whatever that is?

00:47:45:05 - 00:48:17:11
Jing Foon Yu
Yeah, yeah. Agreed on that very deep note. I'm going to open this up for conversations. Let's see if we've got any. We've got some questions here for you. Okay. I have cut Devon is asking are there any specific things you do when you feel these feelings arise that help you accept the process or move through the emotion?

00:48:17:13 - 00:48:49:17
Heather Crank
Oh, that's a good question. First of all, Davron, it took me the longest time to recognize what was happening. Like, the first episode that we write about in the book was happened at a schoolyard, and I think it took me about two years before I actually realized what happened there. And now I see them happening.

00:48:49:19 - 00:49:20:01
Jing Foon Yu
On the same day, I realize that's happening on the same day in sometimes like 2 or 3 hours afterwards. So I think it's because I was like, it was just like, in in innovation, you have this process for people who are, unconscious and unaware of things. So, being aware of it more and more so I know that it can happen to me.

00:49:20:02 - 00:49:51:04
Jing Foon Yu
And what I do is the moment that I realize it, I close my eyes and I take a deep breath, and I just try to steady my breath, and then sometimes I can snap out of it. But not always. So this week I had this terrible, terrible fight, and I, was somebody close. And I found myself yelling in the phone, it's not a good thing to yell at people.

00:49:51:06 - 00:50:28:02
Jing Foon Yu
Definitely not a good thing to yell at a phone conversation. But I caught myself yelling, so I. I said, stop. It was more to me than to the other person because the other person was yelling. I was the one yelling. So, I caught myself yelling and said, stop, stop. I need to stop here because I reached my limit and I need to hang up now because, I so it's sometimes sooner, sometimes too late.

00:50:28:02 - 00:50:55:09
Jing Foon Yu
Because I found in this instance it was too late because I already start yelling. And it was such a primitive gut reaction. I don't think you somehow maybe talk to me in ten years. I can prevent it, but not right now yet. So the only thing that I can do is close my eyes, try to calm myself, and breathe like four counts in all that.

00:50:55:09 - 00:51:00:07
Jing Foon Yu
Four counts and four counts out.

00:51:00:09 - 00:51:30:11
Jing Foon Yu
It also sounds like, you're setting boundaries for yourself too. When? When you feel that, you're in a place you don't want to be, being that, being able to stop it like that, that's hard. I was not proud of yelling, but it was. I was proud that I actually caught myself yelling, because I feel like I don't want to be the person yelling, whoever wants to be the person yelling, yeah, right.

00:51:30:15 - 00:51:59:19
Jing Foon Yu
So it's something that, yeah, I did not control in that moment. Yeah. He Devon is also saying you mentioned earlier that you moved into activism as an adult because you questioned why you weren't doing something you were passionate about since leaving high school. What do you think prevents more people from pursuing the things that they're passionate about in life?

00:51:59:21 - 00:52:42:19
Heather Crank
And do you have any advice to help people overcome their fears? That's a good question that from well for me it also starts with being coming, becoming aware. You know I was I was becoming aware that all the stuff that I was doing were commercially relevant, but it didn't do anything for people or planet so didn't contribute to a better, healthier society or to the mental or physical health of the country, the civilization, the world, whatever.

00:52:42:21 - 00:53:19:12
Jing Foon Yu
And, and I also, I think I asked myself the question, what if what if I could, like, pursue those more activist, projects that I actually did during college or high school? How would that look like? And I also have to say, I think it's also from a place of privilege, to be honest, because somehow I could ask myself those questions and make a living, right?

00:53:19:14 - 00:53:50:22
Jing Foon Yu
I mean, if you're so stressed about your finances, you're happy that you have a job. I am privileged and fortunate and very, very, very lucky. I might add that I actually have clients who refer me and, that I have jobs and that I can actually say to you, on my website, please don't call me if it's only commercially relevant.

00:53:51:00 - 00:54:28:05
Jing Foon Yu
And it doesn't do anybody good because I, I follow for instance, I followed a, women centric design course. That was such an eye opener because, like, you have, like, dark patterns that you can design in UX for websites and stuff. You can also have like dark patterns and stuff that is not specifically online. I don't know if you know, the, well, there's this does this payment thing that we have now here in the Netherlands and, that lets you pay later.

00:54:28:05 - 00:54:54:22
Jing Foon Yu
So you go to a physical shop, you don't have to pay, but you have to pay in installments, so you can pay later. So it doesn't cost me nothing out of my pocket at the time. But that's also a dark pattern because it helps people into debt so quickly, because, of course, the interest on those things is even worse than the credit card interest.

00:54:55:00 - 00:55:26:05
Jing Foon Yu
So that is also a dark pattern. So, the the lady who gave that design course, she goes, like she was asking, is this design for good or for bad? And what are the dark patterns playing? Here. What is it? So it's it's also being able to recognize it, different, I would say being aware and conscious of what is the choice that you would make that you want to make.

00:55:26:05 - 00:55:57:14
Jing Foon Yu
And you don't dare. And it is privilege, but it's also about courage. If you are privileged enough, but you're still not doing it. What is the one thing that you're scared about? I listen to. Who is the person who wrote the book? Weirdo. Hey, weirdo. Hello, James. Victoria thing. James. Victoria said, at least I think he said it.

00:55:57:16 - 00:56:25:22
Jing Foon Yu
Most of the people who actually will hold you back, or your closest friends and family, because they go, like, are you crazy? What are you thinking about? What do you me? You're giving your, I don't know, full time law, your job to become an art starving artist? It's also afraid of what people might say. Probably. And and this is the beauty of turning 40 plus.

00:56:26:00 - 00:56:54:13
Heather Crank
You start caring less and less. Yes. Yeah. I can agree with you more. It is at least in my experience, it definitely is the people closest to me who have the loudest voice in the biggest objections for sure. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So do we have any other questions. We're getting close to our, our let's see I think we are set.

00:56:54:15 - 00:57:23:05
Heather Crank
Jing I just want to thank you so much for making time for us today. I am a huge fan of your work, and I love your book and your illustrations and your courage. I really it's I know this was a difficult process, but you're helping so many people with your willingness to be seen and to show what's been inside of you, because you're not the only one and you're giving the people permission.

00:57:23:07 - 00:57:29:07
Jing Foon Yu
Yes. Thank you so much, Heather. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Jing.