Who Are We Now: Design Identity in the Wake of the Algorithm | ft. Petrula Vrontikis

Who Are We Now? Petrula Vrontikis on Design, Identity & Staying Human in the Algorithm Age -

Welcome to one of the most soul-shifting conversations we’ve ever had on the Developing Life Podcast.

What happens to authorship, intuition, and creative power when algorithms shape our every move?

Petrula Vrontikis—renowned educator, speaker, and creative coach—joins us for a powerful and poetic exploration of how designers can reclaim their identity, voice, and humanity in an increasingly automated world.

From teaching at ArtCenter for over 30 years to redefining what it means to thrive as a creative, Petrula shares:

💥 The hidden emotional toll of algorithmic design
💥 Why identity is no longer fixed—and that’s a good thing
💥 Her personal journey to becoming a creative authority
💥 The transformational tension between growth and anxiety
💥 How to rediscover your joy and your confidence

If you’ve ever felt lost in the noise, this episode is your compass.
If you’ve questioned your worth in the face of fast content, this is your permission slip.
If you’re craving honest, real talk about design, life, and meaning—you’ve found your people.

LISTEN NOW
And don’t forget to hit LIKE, SUBSCRIBE, and drop a comment about what part hit you hardest.

🔗 FOLLOW PETRULA
Website: https://www.rebld.org/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petrulavrontikis

#PetrulaVrontikis #DesignPodcast #CreativeResistance #DevelopingLife #ChrisDo #DesignEducation #HumanCenteredDesign #AlgorithmCulture #CreativeAnxiety #RickRubin #TransformationalTension #DesignWithPurpose #ArtCenter #VoiceNotVolume #RebuildWithPetrula

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:13
Unknown
Welcome to the Developing Life podcast, people. Tick tick tick.

00:00:12:13 - 00:00:24:21
Unknown
We are witnessing a world where the feed never stops and prompts replace process. Living in an era that is shaped by algorithmic influence. What becomes of the designer's voice today?

00:00:24:21 - 00:00:50:23
Unknown
We are honored to have with us particular brand. Take us a graphic designer, educator, speaker, content creator, and career coach who has spent decades empowering creative professionals to trust their instincts, clarify their voice, and speak confidently about their work. For over 30 years, Fiorella has served as a professor of graphic Design and professional practice at Artcenter College in Design in Pasadena, California.

00:00:51:01 - 00:01:19:23
Unknown
Her impact extends beyond the classroom. Through her thought leadership and conference talks, she has helped define what it means to be in design with both purpose and ethics in mind, but truly is also the recipient of the Iger Fellow Award, recognized for her lasting contributions to the design industry and honoring her as an essential voice, raising the understanding of design within the industry and among the business and cultural communities of Los Angeles.

00:01:20:01 - 00:01:42:08
Unknown
But truly, it teaches us not only how to make things, but in a way that reclaims intention, identity, and creative authorship with our host, Heather Krank. But Sheila will share a rich conversation on the tension between visibility and voice, the power of creative resistance, and why being human may just be the new designer's superpower.

00:01:42:08 - 00:01:45:22
Unknown
Thank you so much to welcome Petula.

00:01:45:22 - 00:02:09:03
Unknown
It is so wonderful to have you on the podcast. I, I've been following you for a while. We met, on clubhouse, and I just thought you were spectacular. So welcome to the developing life. Thanks, Heather. It's so nice to see the Developing Life podcast take shape for you. How exciting. Yes. So I just want to jump right in.

00:02:09:05 - 00:02:35:02
Unknown
You teach. Have taught at, Art center for 30 years, and you teach design. You're well known in your community. What drew you to teaching at the art center? How did you get there? Well, I had known about an art center since high school. I had an amazing art teacher and he had some of his students go on and learn at Art center.

00:02:35:04 - 00:03:07:00
Unknown
I didn't go there. I went to Cal State Long Beach and I got accepted at Art center. But I decided I couldn't afford to do So I sort of committed myself to a lot more learning the hard way. And it worked out okay. I also went to University of Denver. But fast forward to after I had worked for a couple other design firms, and then I started my own business in my late 20s.

00:03:07:02 - 00:03:40:18
Unknown
I had gotten, I got an a really good start in a business, and I had some amazing clients and got some national awards. Wow. So what happened is, it that that information got to Art center. And what was happening then is Arts Center was actually looking for a diversity hire. They had many old, old guys that had gone to art center teaching, and that just became a this art center way.

00:03:40:20 - 00:04:06:06
Unknown
So the president and the department chair said, we need we need some fresh perspective. So, you know, do you know anybody? And because I had been involved in the idea at the time, they they they asked me and they tested me and it was really so frightening because you at the time, you didn't get much educational training. I had no educational credentials.

00:04:06:08 - 00:04:30:20
Unknown
And I'm thrown into this room with these amazing students, like phenomenal students. And it took me a while to get over my fear. And I just said, okay, I'm just going to teach when I know what I know is how to transition, in a graceful and accelerated way into being able to bring your voice out into the field.

00:04:30:22 - 00:05:01:18
Unknown
And so what I would do is I take half the class and we do critiques on our on our design assignments. But then I take half the class and I talk about freelancing, invoicing, how to talk to clients, how to find clients, how to structure a small business. What? It's a greater design economy as like and just I gave them everything I knew and tried to be super authentic and it worked.

00:05:01:20 - 00:05:29:23
Unknown
What I didn't realize is how rare that is for faculty at art and design colleges to do that for students. They're not. There really aren't classes in that. They might, you know, programs might bring in a business person, but design students don't want to hear from a business person. They want to hear from another designer. So what I have been really cultivating over the years is something super valuable.

00:05:30:00 - 00:06:04:08
Unknown
It's a need that is not being filled and it's gone really well. Now. I teach professional practice and leadership classes in our undergraduate, in our MFA program, and also in our MDIs program, which is brand Design and Strategy as a master's, program. And I love it. The students really respond to it. They need it. And and I just think Art center is just really one of the coolest places to teach ever.

00:06:04:09 - 00:06:27:02
Unknown
Yeah, there are a lot of amazing people who come out of Art center. I find I'm gravitating towards people who are coming out of Art center because they're so brilliant and their education, is so robust. And I agree with you. A lot of the art, college I went to didn't teach a lot about business, and it was a struggle.

00:06:27:02 - 00:06:52:03
Unknown
And I just think that's an incredible service that you give your students. Incredible. But I also want to say that it's inherent in the way traditional education works, that a lot of people that are teaching are out of practice. At Art center, it's often the case that that teachers have their own practices and then they teach part time.

00:06:52:03 - 00:07:35:18
Unknown
That's common there. But most colleges this is faculty have to commit 100% of their time to education. And I think they really don't have practical chops develop. They don't know what's current. So it's and that's not a judgment. It's just how it works in the, in the way traditional education works. But what started, what I started to see is there became this sort of us and them about clients like those clients, they're going to get in the way of my clients and, and it created this idea of animosity between graphic designers and clients that I just don't buy into.

00:07:35:20 - 00:08:04:08
Unknown
All I don't either. Yeah. Agreed. It's a collaboration. It's a collaborative sort of dance between the designer and the client. If you don't have clients, who are you? So let's talk for a minute about what you would consider good design and how you feel. The algorithm is changing the way we perceive design and we interact with each other.

00:08:04:10 - 00:08:49:12
Unknown
Do you notice a difference in your students? I'm noticing not as much a difference in my students, but a difference in the way design is being practiced. I my definition of good design, has really changed. I think good design is. Having a sustainable creative career over time. So in the past we used to really be excited about particular trends or, or you know we used to go to design conferences and hear about these design luminaries that were really artists that were using graphic design as a medium.

00:08:49:16 - 00:09:20:18
Unknown
Yes, yes. And they would, you know, they'd still have that kind of a bit of an ace in them thing. And everyone go rah, rah, rah. And I just don't find that to be the what happens now? I mean, good design is about good relationships with clients that that will stand the test of time. We forget that good design is invested in by clients like they're making investments in us, not just in our rigor or in our talent, but in our ability to see things they can't see.

00:09:20:20 - 00:09:49:08
Unknown
And we forget that they it's frightening to hire a designer. I think I respect designers the most that have excellent business practice. I think my, my, one of my favorite designers is Michael Beirut. I just think good design goes beyond design. And the man understands his his craft. Impeccable craft. Right. But he he's a leader. He's a speaker.

00:09:49:08 - 00:10:23:19
Unknown
He's a writer. Like good designers is beyond design. And that career that that man has had. And how many other designers he's influenced I'm now just yeah, amazing. And I think Brian Collins represents a good designer like that. So and you know, I was listening to polisher. Oh on a podcast, Rick Rubin's Tetragrammaton podcast, and she was so funny because, Rick Rubin was asking her about does she do research?

00:10:23:21 - 00:10:59:23
Unknown
And she paused and I'm like, oh, like, you know, like I told wow. What she she said, yeah, I research who makes decisions within the company. And that's, that's the best research I can do to help my design. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I just think it's important to elevate design communities and and in business communities and, you know, I think in regards to the algorithm, it's really sort of there's good things and bad things.

00:11:00:01 - 00:11:30:21
Unknown
It's easier because as a designer, things are things are automated and some things that are mundane, we can do faster. But what I'm finding is, of course, now we're getting a lot of pressure to design for algorithms. And so the problem with designing for algorithms is that there's a lot of people hacking the algorithms. So we find ourselves designing for the algorithms that are being hacked by the algorithms.

00:11:30:23 - 00:12:05:02
Unknown
And, and it it's really a challenge because we, we want to be innovative. And if you think about what an algorithm is doing, it's it's telling you what's happened in the past and what's happening in the present and in the present moment. But it doesn't allow for innovation. So there's a certain recirculation there. And I think it does inhibit our ability to to convince and persuade clients to take greater risks.

00:12:05:04 - 00:12:35:01
Unknown
Yeah. I, I'm just seeing so much of that face in, in what we do as innovators go down and are accountable to numbers and graphs and charts and, and, and this, go up and I hope some graphic designers find inspiration in that. I'm finding it very hard. Do you, you know we're constantly asking is that right.

00:12:35:01 - 00:13:06:06
Unknown
Is that good enough. How does it test. You know, it's it's, that it's a benchmark that is, is based is is is not future oriented. It's present oriented. And I think the space is really getting contaminated. And frankly, we're not trained to navigate that space. It is an enormous shift. So we it were taken aback by it.

00:13:06:06 - 00:13:23:23
Unknown
And I and I'm not sure it enables us to do our best work. Not the graphic designers are amazing. I mean, we'll probably figure it out, but it is, it is it is one of these massive change aspects that.

00:13:24:01 - 00:13:52:19
Unknown
You know, we'll just have to see how that shakes out. I mean, the change also has been really quick. Yes. It's just been such a rapid, reconfiguration of the design landscape. And I find myself, struggling. It's moving so fast, it's hard to keep up with everything. Now, on top of that, the tools are changing, the demands are changing.

00:13:52:21 - 00:14:24:23
Unknown
What advice do you give your students in this new landscape? Like how do you encourage them to hold true to, what makes a good design versus what's quick and easy? They feel it. I just I don't have I mean, I can, I can help them verbalize what it is that's going on, but they're feeling that that, anxiety.

00:14:25:01 - 00:14:32:21
Unknown
So,

00:14:32:23 - 00:15:00:20
Unknown
Heather, it's happened so fast. I can't tell you something that I am absolutely doing that I know works for this. It's it's like a a work in progress. Yeah. I think what AI is doing for our students is, is phenomenal. I see so much expansiveness in their creativity, their thought, their writing. I'm not feeling like they're using it as a cheat.

00:15:00:20 - 00:15:37:14
Unknown
I think they're using it for incredible ways of expanding. One of our best faculty in our department is here. His name's Gerardo Herrera, and you guys should look him up. He is really bringing how designers relationship to AI can can really elevate what a designer's message is. So we're we're welcoming so many of these tools and we're seeing it's like on the ground, we're seeing we're seeing how it's working in real time.

00:15:37:16 - 00:16:01:15
Unknown
Yeah. I hope that answered your question. I wish I had this. No, no, no it did I mean, it is it's we're at an inflection point. It's a really weird space. I also find that it's a very rebellious act to take a technology, make it your own, and turn it into something more positive. And I see a lot of designers doing that.

00:16:01:15 - 00:16:23:16
Unknown
I see a lot of artists, so one of the first things you are breaking ground years ago, and I just really, really appreciated the work that you were doing. I just found it sublime. Oh, thank you, thank you. You should be answering. It's.

00:16:23:17 - 00:16:47:16
Unknown
Pictorial. Putting me on the spot. You love it. Speaking of. All right, so I want to go back just a little bit. You and I met on clubhouse, and we were speaking, before this podcast began, about you discovering that you are more of an auditory learner. Yeah. And clubhouse was, you know, during the pandemic was this amazing platform of people connected.

00:16:47:18 - 00:17:11:13
Unknown
And I think I met you through Chris Doe. Absolutely. Yeah. So and then I met Emily Hansen. So I'd love to know, how are you connected with Chris and Anna? How did you meet them? So I Chris was this was at Art center. I never had him as a student. But Chris was started making waves really very quickly out of, of, Arts Center.

00:17:11:13 - 00:17:40:01
Unknown
And he established blind and and he and I became colleagues and friends. And when he went on clubhouse, he's like, it's really have to be there. But really you have to go there. And again, when Chris says, you gotta do something, I do it right. And he it was, it was, it was so interesting because I just found that space in auditory learning to be one of the most satisfying things for me.

00:17:40:03 - 00:18:13:07
Unknown
And I kind of learned this early on because when I was doing LinkedIn learning videos, LinkedIn tells you that people learn differently sometimes when they're watching a video or when they have a LinkedIn learning video, they'll turn the the video off and they'll just listen. Or the watch the video with the transcriptions. One of the things asynchronous learning does is it helps you, it helps you customize your learning.

00:18:13:09 - 00:18:46:02
Unknown
So I didn't realize until that audio app clubhouse how deeply audio goes in, in my creative space. And I got a chance on, on that app to really exercise my voice and enjoy bringing people in and helping them find their voice. So it was a whole community, including Chris, a finding our voices. You couldn't have asked for a better training ground for content creators to be in, as you know.

00:18:46:04 - 00:19:17:23
Unknown
So so, Chris, you know, Chris and I have always had a really great rapport. He's had me on his channel. I've done livestreams there. And, he introduced me to Emily Hansen, who who was working with him as another, teacher on his future academy and also just part of part of Chris's empire. Right. And Anna Lee really brought this wonderful brand strategy for us to clubhouse.

00:19:17:23 - 00:19:45:18
Unknown
And then I started, my own clubhouse channel with Leanne Rodriguez, who is also a designer and, mostly exhibition design and now turned entrepreneur. He's launching, an amazing new product. Well, let's hopefully everything becomes okay. So the three of us had this design career masterclass. Let me just make up stuff. It was really low risk, very broad.

00:19:45:20 - 00:20:12:23
Unknown
So that's how I know Chris. He also has been pushing me. He's like you need to be speaking more. So you need to be on me like all these things. So I, I started my coaching, a new coaching site called rebuild that's abbreviated rebuild dawg. And that's a new coaching site to get, my teaching, outside of the walls of our center.

00:20:13:01 - 00:20:38:01
Unknown
And also, I'm writing a book, which I'm so excited for this. So tell us about the book. It is a series of interconnected essays about how to navigate challenges, not just in a creative career, but in life. And I wish I could give you a title, but I don't know the title. Yeah, there's about six titles in the works.

00:20:38:03 - 00:21:06:22
Unknown
But it was really it's it actually started out being more like I was going to write a tips and tricks for, you know, professional career stuff. And I just found it that when I started that it's like, this is boring. I, you know, there's so many books out there that can do that. So I try to figure out what like, like the story I told you about my first teaching class at Arts, and I had to I had to really dig deep and find out what it is that I know.

00:21:07:00 - 00:21:45:01
Unknown
And I know that we are we are functioning in layers. There's this top layer that's a very strong imposed atmosphere, like stress and tension and distraction. And then there's this really dense layer that is, if you want to get through this, you really have to have discipline and figure out how to be fearless and dive through a difficult, transformational layer to get to the reward, which is like this beautiful way that you can be resonating with the work that you do, and a life that you've designed.

00:21:45:03 - 00:22:09:03
Unknown
So it's this it's an interesting over under sensibility, like if you drew a line and there's this atmosphere here, that layer, and then sort of this really interesting natural ecosystem here. That's what I'm looking at. And that just happens to be a lot of the underwater photography I do. It's this above and below the split screen stuff.

00:22:09:05 - 00:22:34:18
Unknown
It was I'm digging deep. I'm looking at what inspires me. And I realized that the solution to this book has been wait, has been there always hidden in plain sight for me? So that's what it took. It's I can't wait. I'll probably be out in November. I think. But it's really amazing to have a first draft behind you.

00:22:34:20 - 00:22:58:19
Unknown
Oh, I can't even imagine. So back to the question at hand. I'm doing what Chris has told me, because if I'm going to speak, I've really got to speak on something that is like hyper authentic to me. And super interesting to not just graphic designers, but designers and and people that identify as creative people that are struggling. And they need a new view.

00:22:58:19 - 00:23:31:13
Unknown
They need a reframing tool. And I think this is a good one. So let's talk about identity for just a minute. With everything that's going on right now, identity is something that's being challenged, and it's part of the the reason we chose this title today of who are we now? So as designers are being challenged by this, very, rapid fire, technological advancing world, and we have these principles that we've always held on to.

00:23:31:15 - 00:23:59:23
Unknown
We've they're sort of the structure and foundation of design. Do you think that this is going to shift? Do you think our identity as designers is shifting and that's why this is so, scary and tumultuous right now? It it has to shift. We don't have a choice. I mean, we're functioning in a world that is.

00:24:00:01 - 00:24:30:17
Unknown
Is is becoming, automated, abbreviated, it we are primed to do well in it by our training, honestly. So I am optimistic about us. I'm optimistic about us not having to do some of the more mundane tasks and to be able to solve deeper problems. I just feel like its effect on our humanity has been extraordinarily difficult.

00:24:30:19 - 00:25:13:15
Unknown
I'm just finding that there's an emotional fragility, that I'm, I'm seeing in, not just students, but, you know, young, young designers, young people. And that emotion challenge interrupts our ability to make decisions, and to listen to our intuition. And without those two things, it's very hard to be our best creative selves. So I feel like what we can do now is have a deeper awareness of what is going on, that is taking that humanity away and what is what we have that is able to be regained.

00:25:13:17 - 00:25:54:11
Unknown
So there's a lot of talk of this, in the book that I'm, that I've written, it's, it's, it's really about a lot of it is disconnecting, but it's not just disconnecting from devices, it's actually reconnecting with what isn't isn't necessarily evident until we really look for it on a deeper level. It without it, I just don't think we can be who we are the best that we can be.

00:25:54:13 - 00:26:15:11
Unknown
You know, I'm I'm. It's a real weird thing. I'm starting this coaching business at the time when I is know, like, you know, just just ask me anything and. Yeah, but bots and everything that I'll help you with an interview to have, you know. But you know how how meaningful is that? I think learning how we best learn.

00:26:15:13 - 00:26:49:12
Unknown
I don't know that we'll really learn deeply. Unless we're learning with humanity in mind. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, we're in bodies. That's the thing. We're in bodies. And and all this distraction keeps us from understanding our bodies. There's a there's a concept that I really love that, is called transformational tension. So people experience anxiety, right?

00:26:49:13 - 00:27:25:23
Unknown
And it's really important to try and parse out what you're anxious about, because sometimes you're anxious because there's been so much imposed on you and you're being distracted. But there's another kind of anxiety that I think is positive, and that is that you are making enormous change. And change is challenging. So it's posit you're feeling, you know, unsure, but your goal is to better your understanding of something and you have to get through either the rigor of doing it or the pressure of doing it, or the challenge of just change.

00:27:26:01 - 00:27:55:10
Unknown
So I, I guess I one thing I'm going to start teaching is trying to figure out what imposed anxiety from our, let's say, just from our devices, or the actual transformation anxiety, which we should welcome because it is positive and it is the thing that we're going to be able to gain confidence from, because we are learning slowly to get through something that's really, really hard.

00:27:55:12 - 00:28:22:04
Unknown
And I don't think that kind of thinking has been out that much. I've kept from tension, I love that, yeah, I love that, I, I really can't wait to read your book. So one other question I have for you is, can you talk about the difference between learning to design and being a designer? Is there a difference?

00:28:22:06 - 00:28:31:23
Unknown
Yeah, I think, you know, this is the difference between maybe,

00:28:32:01 - 00:28:58:12
Unknown
Let's say student and professional. You in in in school, we're learning design fundamentals. We're using learning tools. We're using strategies. And everything's quite hypothetical. And I know it sounds logical, but then you're learning to be a designer because you've got to apply all those things in environments that are conducive for you to do your best work. So learning how to be a designer, you have to be a designer.

00:28:58:13 - 00:29:30:22
Unknown
I think it's really hard to do that in environments that are not and are not, let's just say commercial environments, because you're really tested in ways that unfortunately, our schools just can't prepare you for. So, it's interesting because I just had, guest speaker and my MD is at Arts and MD class and arts center is named Jim Bogan Reef.

00:29:31:00 - 00:30:06:18
Unknown
And Jim, his global head of head of design at JPMorgan Chase. Oh, former student. I mean, he is he's here and and he showed us a slide that had that horizontal line. The word talent was below that line, and the word relationships was above that line. And he talked about the difference between learning how to design or being a designer versus how we get from.

00:30:06:20 - 00:30:35:17
Unknown
Just being, a technical designer, which is not a judgment. But many people want to be paid more. They want greater opportunities. They want, a bigger reach for their voice and their vision. And the barrier is your ability or lack of ability to understand relationships. So with both the talent and relationships, one is able to find more opportunities.

00:30:35:19 - 00:31:17:07
Unknown
So learning how to be a designer I think is beyond the design fundamentals and into the relationships with understanding collaborations, understanding your relationships you'll have with people who don't have design training, whether they're marketing people, engineers, business leaders. So it's a that's, I think, a really important way that we've got to understand the communication, persuasion, interaction and the bonds that we have with humans.

00:31:17:09 - 00:31:41:09
Unknown
Because the more we automate ourselves out of convenience, the less apt we are to have the opportunities that are going to give us the greatest chance for our voice to be heard at a greater scale. Yeah, it also seems like the human part of us is going to become the most valuable part of us. As you said, it's it's less could be less and less accessible.

00:31:41:09 - 00:32:03:16
Unknown
And people are going to crave it more. Yeah, people are going to crave it more. And they know I mean, it's it's been very sweet in teaching, and I'm sure all the teachers in the room have seen this. Like, students are astonished when they get out into nature. It's like, oh my gosh, I went for a walk and this amazing stuff happened.

00:32:03:21 - 00:32:33:05
Unknown
Wow. I went, I went to the botanical gardens, or I went here and or I went camping and I mean, the relief that they feel when they disconnect and then reconnect with nature and how that just rings out the towel for them and lets them start anew, is one of the most joyful things we see. And you know, we've lived longer and we've seen like we know how important this is.

00:32:33:07 - 00:33:01:02
Unknown
And when they when it's this amazing revelation, it's like, yeah, start singing songs. Start because then you can start breathing again. That a student was having trouble with her anxiety before presentations last term. And I asked her, do you sing? And she said, yeah. And I said, well, on your way, wherever you are before your presentation, just start singing because it'll regulate your breath.

00:33:01:04 - 00:33:22:01
Unknown
And so, you know, I could have taught her the, you know, the, the yogic breathing exercises or whatever, but she could sing songs that mean so much to her in a really beautiful, just as easily to to reregulate her breath and to calm yourself down. Stuff's fun. Teaching is fun. And that's, you know, that's another good point.

00:33:22:02 - 00:33:47:05
Unknown
That emotional regulation I, you know, take for granted so many things I do naturally. But there are generations that don't have the same type of connection. Or they went through high school in the pandemic. Yeah. What are three steps you would give somebody if they feel like they need to reconnect to their environment or themselves? We've got singing, breathing.

00:33:47:05 - 00:34:19:17
Unknown
Is there something else that you would advise up and coming designers to connect to spend real time with people that are positive and start trying to align yourself with communities of positive people? Because sometimes when we're in these emotional spirals, we'll find people that are like, yeah, it's just that bad, isn't it? You know? So there's commiseration Club and that is really not very useful.

00:34:19:19 - 00:34:40:10
Unknown
But to find people that are optimistic that that, that speak about the I know it's just it's this weird word, but just love, love press love of what you're doing. And and if those people tend to get.

00:34:40:12 - 00:35:27:00
Unknown
Or you can get yourself into human interaction that isn't about judgment and isn't about complaining. And I also would encourage people to learn from different generations because we kind of tend to give a lot more weight to people that are our age because we think we oh, they have the experience. But but again, sometimes those are like closed loop spinning things to learn from somebody who had to go through something and has a way of being able to have you not have to go through it like, like a mentor or learning from someone younger that is just fresh and and has a fresh perspective.

00:35:27:00 - 00:36:07:20
Unknown
So this multi-generational aspect of humanity, I think, is, is something to look deeply at for, for ways is it an antidote to what is oppressive and finding ourselves too deep in. That's beautiful. Is there a I mean it actually what's happening now is I've been I'm kind of a pop psych geek for lots of podcasts. And there's a lot of podcasts right now about the experiences that young men are having, the real challenges with a whole generation of men in their 20s and early 30s.

00:36:07:22 - 00:36:39:08
Unknown
And ultimately it comes down to finding, intergenerational communities of men that you can build trust with. I'm going to I'm going to bring up something else, if yes, please. So there's a there's two ways to learn, okay. And it's this sounds simplistic, but there's two ways to learn. There's learning through light and learning through pain.

00:36:39:10 - 00:37:09:15
Unknown
Okay. So when you're learning through pain you're you're having to go through and and figure that out and it having it taking its toll on you, which is a really important way humans have learned over time through pain. Right. The other one is light. And light is knowledge that other humans have that you can tap into because they've already gone through the pain.

00:37:09:17 - 00:37:36:15
Unknown
So you're looking for the light, and you're looking for the. So that's why a lot of young people really want good mentors, because they realize they, they're it's too exhausting to try and do this start and, and have to reinvent the wheel when someone they care for and respect that also cares for and respects them, just tell them that's beautiful.

00:37:36:17 - 00:38:10:15
Unknown
Is is there, experience with a student that you found really inspiring? The kind of stays with you, through your years of teaching at Artcenter, where you integrated that into your actual life and practice? Yeah, I would say there's it's happened many times. I've been very blessed with amazing students. There that are open and that that, trust me.

00:38:10:17 - 00:38:34:22
Unknown
I. I try and give them, truth with kindness so that trust is there. There is a former student I had like, this is a story I, I that comes to mind. There's a former student. I had a art center in a presentation skills class. She was from transportation design and she graduate and she we had a great time in class.

00:38:34:22 - 00:39:02:18
Unknown
I really respected her and I knew she was up for greatness. She got a terrific job outside in transportation design, but started to ask me to help her as a personal coach, as a creative, career and presentation coach. And her her issue was that she was doing well. But her boss would kind of take over. Her boss wanted her to give better presentations.

00:39:02:20 - 00:39:24:10
Unknown
And what was happening is her boss was kind of taking over when they were making presentations together. So I had to teach her how to teach her boss. And before I was able to teach her how to be a better presenter, I had to teach her how to establish a better relationship with her boss. The boss was a great guy, don't get me wrong.

00:39:24:12 - 00:39:49:19
Unknown
It's just he was more of an extrovert and he would feel like he always would take center stage. And and so he was disabled, building her ability to grow and learn as her own presenter. So it was really fun to kind of hack at that and realize I had to teach her about him and training him before I could actually help her.

00:39:49:21 - 00:40:22:12
Unknown
That's really powerful, because I know there are a lot of introverts, out there, myself included, and learning how to navigate a very extroverted, workplace and set boundaries and educate people about what you need is a whole process in itself. If you were to let's just use me because I'm sitting here, give me advice on how to handle more dominating workplaces where as you when you first met me, I'm a little shy.

00:40:22:12 - 00:41:19:19
Unknown
I'm a little quiet. If I were to express or try to express what I needed and it wasn't heard, what would be my next step? I think it's really important to let people understand, that you want to think it through, and when you do, you will be able to get back to them. Because I think these meetings and these accelerated times of, the extroverts are taking over, they're just, you know, they're just spitballing where I, I believe I understand that as introverts, you're you're really trying to think all this through, and you could probably come up with something so much more valuable if I'm just given a moment.

00:41:19:21 - 00:41:54:09
Unknown
So the idea of interjecting and saying, that is a really interesting idea, I'd like to think that through because there are some connections I would like to make. So you are inviting people into the thought process that you are committing yourself to, to be able to be contributing to this, whatever. Problem you are solving. So at least people are understanding there's something really there's something to come and we need it.

00:41:54:11 - 00:42:21:08
Unknown
So you are as you are letting us know that you are, you're going to bring something really valuable because you have an ability to think this thing through in a totally different way. And just saying, I think I might have a unique perspective on this, but I'd like to think it through because there are some notes I want to reference and I promise to get back tomorrow or whatever it is.

00:42:21:10 - 00:42:52:02
Unknown
But just don't just don't let everything happen without you establishing the value that you believe you can contribute. Once you have thought it through. How does that lend? Heather. Oh, I love it. That's brilliant. It's brilliant. There was a oh, I wish I remembered. I'm a I'm a huge geek. Listening to diary of a CEO, Stephen Bartletts.

00:42:52:05 - 00:43:29:09
Unknown
Oh, I love him. He had this this, trial attorney on. And I'm, like, trial attorney. Like, I'm going to listen to a jam. This guy was talking about how pauses and silence in negotiation and all those things of just like stepping back and not having that knee jerk extroversion reaction helps significantly in, in in negotiations. I wish I could I could pinpoint that guy's name, but I don't have it on the top on the tip of my tongue.

00:43:29:11 - 00:43:56:13
Unknown
Yeah I, I've heard that too. That, that and it's true in music if we use audio chanting the silence and the pause in between all the notes and in conversations, it's really the powerful point. Yeah. Oh and when I teach motion design students at Art center, I don't ever ask them anymore. Are you a musician? I don't ask them what I.

00:43:56:17 - 00:44:30:13
Unknown
What I ask them now is what musical instrument do you play? Yeah, because they when they are good at motion design, they're excellent as they are trained musicians because they understand timing, cadence, pauses, builds. I mean brilliant. I can agree more. That's that was part of my transition into motion design was because of my past. It was like, oh what instrument do you play?

00:44:30:18 - 00:44:55:16
Unknown
I was a dancer. I my body was the instrument. But but I, I, you know, I feel that was a very natural transition. You're 100% dead on. Of course. In particular, I just want to say to, like, younger people in the room that might feel like, you know, all these vintage folks are saying, like, 30 years of experience.

00:44:55:18 - 00:45:22:22
Unknown
All this means as that we've seen a lot of change, we don't know everything. We just seen a lot of change. And so when change is coming more rapidly to us, it's really interesting to see what what is the light that we have that we can help others not have to go through these things with too much pain.

00:45:22:23 - 00:45:53:10
Unknown
Yeah, true. I mean, if you can sidestep some of the pain, why not? Yes. So we are at, the 45 minute mark. And if you have any questions for Petula, please put them in the chat. And I can read the questions to her. You are also welcome. And I have one more question for her. When I finish this question to turn on your camera and raise your hand if you would like to speak with Petula directly.

00:45:53:12 - 00:46:20:19
Unknown
So my last question for you is, what are you listening to and reading besides your book right now? Yeah. I, as I mentioned, I'm a huge fan. I'm a podcast junkie because I must I realize I'll, I'll this time I thought I was a visual learner. I'm an auditory learner. So I'm a podcast junkie. Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett is phenomenal.

00:46:20:21 - 00:46:50:08
Unknown
I'm really loving Modern Wisdom. By Chris Williamson. He's mostly speaking to man I love that I'm not his audience. But what I really love when I'm learning is, is to to know how what how others are experiencing their lives and how others are bettering their lives. I, I'm, I read recently, Rick Rubin's The Creative Act, which is a must read.

00:46:50:10 - 00:47:23:10
Unknown
And of course, I listen to it on audible because I'm a auditory learner. But, you know, it's beautifully designed. I think, pentagram designed it. So those of you who are design geeks, you're going to love that. I also reread a book by my friend and famous breathwork, coach Max Strahm, and it's called There is No App for happiness How to avoid and Near Life experience.

00:47:23:12 - 00:47:58:09
Unknown
Well, so Max identified years ago. How are apps and how are, reliance on them for being a portal to the world would diminish our ability to find our own joy. So again, that's Max Strome s t r o m and in general, Chris. Oh, there's one more. Book to read. I it's by it's called This is What it sounds like and it's by Susan Rogers.

00:47:58:11 - 00:48:29:06
Unknown
And, Augie August and Susan, and they're talking about the neuroscience of sound, like what the music you like says about you and how sound affects the body. It would be so great for you, Heather, because of your dance background, your physicality. And it's a way for us to connect our sonic learning to our physical body. Because as we're really in this struggle of concentration, I think we're relying a little too much on our eyes.

00:48:29:06 - 00:49:01:11
Unknown
And it's exhausting. So a reconnection with our ears in our bodies. I think that book is really super helpful. Oh, and of course I have to. And I'm not just saying read Dr. Chris Christos the Future podcast is just a must because we're just not getting enough business and design thinking. And Chris is is just rocking at it's been such a joy to see him do so well and be so dedicated to trying to teach billions of people to learn to love what they do.

00:49:01:12 - 00:49:31:11
Unknown
Yeah. Agreed. So if you missed some of those books, Devon is putting the links in the chat, so feel free to check those out. I do have a question here from Kelly and Johnson. She asks, you talked about the feeling of transition, different from the feeling of anxiety. Can you share a significant transition in your own career and how it felt?

00:49:31:12 - 00:49:55:04
Unknown
There have been so many. I think it would be. Yeah. I don't know if you were here early when we started, Kelly, but, just being in, a room as a 27 year old, as a teacher at one of the finest design colleges in the world, you got a class of people like. That's anxiety, right? That's incredible anxiety.

00:49:55:04 - 00:50:25:23
Unknown
Like I had not taught before. And here I am. So that anxiety is transformational anxiety like I have now a goal to be able to have them listen, I'm I don't know what I'm doing, but I am the this is the energy is being channeled for good. It's not just spinning energy. I'm not just anxious, I am, I am ready for a transformation or even getting ready for this podcast today.

00:50:26:01 - 00:50:47:07
Unknown
As much as I know how to speak with public speaking, I'm, I'm I'm a little nervous, you know, and I'm thinking, oh, transformational tension. This is this is, I'll take a breath because this is not anxiety that's out of my control. This is anxiety that is going to give me the momentum to better myself and help others.

00:50:47:09 - 00:50:52:09
Unknown
Does that help? Kelly?

00:50:52:11 - 00:51:26:05
Unknown
Yes. I think that's a great answer. I think that I think it's great. We have another question here from Devereaux and he says, do you think some designers, fail because they're better suited at managing and relationships? And interactions? Personally, I'm finding more fulfillment in landing clients and distributing work as opposed to being locked into a daily design task.

00:51:26:07 - 00:52:04:17
Unknown
I'm. I yeah, I just want to make sure I've got the question right. Okay. Is he asking about, whether or not someone can should be relying on their relationship skills more than their talent? I do think I think he's asking if you're better at relationships. And you're working on your talent, do you fail because you have a less developed, overlapped talent pool and you're better at, hobnobbing with other people?

00:52:04:19 - 00:52:29:14
Unknown
I, I it's interesting because we, you know, we at the teaching at Arts Center, we have incredibly talented students. There are some students that have better social skills, better soft skills, and they will accelerate in their careers faster. And sometimes they don't have some of the design chops that that the others do. And it it's it just goes to the point.

00:52:29:14 - 00:52:51:01
Unknown
Like those relationship aspect is really important. At some point they get so high or up high up in the food chain. They've got good discernment of design, but they don't do it anymore because they're actually guiding others to do it. So I don't have any judgment about that. What I would aspire to do and be is have incredible talent.

00:52:51:03 - 00:53:13:12
Unknown
So you have the confidence of that talent as you move that through to the relationship part. That would be ideal. But it you know, however, you need to get there or whether your talent is yours or whether your talent is finding the right talent, whether your talent is guiding the right talent or inspiring the right talent as a leader.

00:53:13:14 - 00:53:32:02
Unknown
In many ways, there's many ways to, to to enter this career that aren't about being the design star. Do you think talent is something that you're born with or do you think it can be developed or is it both? I know.

00:53:32:04 - 00:54:02:10
Unknown
I know, I know it's, it can be both. Because you know we see students all the time with different come in with different talents or just aspirations. And our job as teachers is just to activate and energize whatever we can to get them deeply committed to understanding it and, and the and and using it over and over again to gain confidence with it.

00:54:02:11 - 00:54:36:19
Unknown
I mean, I never was a great I, I, I don't draw that well I did in college but I don't draw that well. And and a lot of designers like, oh drawing is everything drawings, this drawing. And it's like, oh, but what happened is I kind of learned to draw with my ears, right? I really hear I understand things and can paint pictures and make patterns and connections because I'm really listening.

00:54:36:20 - 00:55:16:05
Unknown
So I, I know it goes both ways, but what I do see. Is that a lot of, a lot of. Design programs and not Art center, but a lot of design programs aren't teaching current. They're teaching decent fundamentals, but not current ways of working. And I think they're doing their students a disservice because I think talent, it needs to be cultivated in, in the ecosystem for the ecosystem that it's going to be functioning in.

00:55:16:07 - 00:55:46:06
Unknown
So if those design programs are rooted in creating discrete artifacts and not creating, systems of, of of design and understanding, and they're just they're students, they're doing their students a disservice. For those people who don't know what systems, that you're referring to, can you speak to a little bit about communication and design systems and sort of just the basics of what you teach?

00:55:46:08 - 00:56:25:18
Unknown
The best person is Meredith Davis for this. Meredith Davis, is, extraordinary design education leader that talks about the incredible transition of our entire field from designing discrete artifacts into designing for systems, because when we understand the ecosystem of what we're creating and how it fits into that, we have a greater power to see its ability to thrive or be challenged along the way, the more myopic we are.

00:56:25:19 - 00:56:53:16
Unknown
I mean, the the, the less effective we're going to be. I mean, I watch, you know, young designers just tread over kerning as the world's burning, right? Like what's going on here? How can design be more effective in the world? And one of the things we forget is that we really know how to activate things both visually and verbally, and how to put them out, and how we can really help others make massive change.

00:56:53:17 - 00:57:19:13
Unknown
We still, in this myopic way that we think we can do it ourselves, but we can't. It's a community that that lots of of of collaborators that have different strengths, that are going to have the power to be able to accelerate change in the world. Beautiful. I want to go and Heather, that's a perfect place for us to to, wrap up this podcast.

00:57:19:15 - 00:57:43:18
Unknown
One more call for questions. If you have any, please drop it in the chat. Otherwise, Petula, please can you tell people once your book is available where they can find it or where they should be checking to watch for its release? I will be talking about it a lot through my coaching site, which is just up.

00:57:43:18 - 00:58:19:16
Unknown
It's new. I mean, just like fresh pressed the button yesterday. And it's rebuild talk, rebuild.org. And that's, my coaching, creative career coaching site. And I'm really looking forward to having some offerings that are group offerings and individual one on one. And I'll be talking about it there. I have my own professional site. Three five KCom and that's, run Tiger's design office, so I'll have stuff up there.

00:58:19:16 - 00:58:44:23
Unknown
I just started Instagram for rebuild with Petrolia, so please follow me because you'll see I just started and it's embarrassing to just start. So I'm there. I want to know you I want to I want to be able to show you what's up and and see what's up going on with the with everybody in the world. I'm on LinkedIn, follow me on LinkedIn and I'll follow you back.

00:58:44:23 - 00:59:09:14
Unknown
I, I love my LinkedIn, group. I think I have, like, maybe 5000 people there. And, I usually do my, my business stuff through LinkedIn, so I'll definitely have it on LinkedIn. And I wish I could tell you the name of it to look for, but it's doesn't have a name yet. That's okay. As long as we know where it's going to show up, we'll be there.

00:59:09:16 - 00:59:36:19
Unknown
And I think, there's something coming out recently on Instagram that's part of my involvement in Art center and as, master of, brand design and strategy, there's a little profile that's going up, coming up, I think today or this week or soon. Soon. So I'm, I'm really kicking in the visibility thing. Chris is on my back, Christo on my back.

00:59:36:20 - 01:00:05:01
Unknown
Finally, I'm able to say, okay, Chris, I'm ready. Yeah, yeah, he's a catalyst, that's for sure. Like Alice and yeah. All right, I have I have one last question that's just squeaking in here. And I will ask this and then we'll close the room. Thank you. Patrol. How do we preserve authorship and individual voice in a time when everything is generated?

01:00:05:01 - 01:00:34:18
Unknown
Templated, and trained on the past? I'm trying to stay adaptable without becoming generic. How do we keep our work honest? This is from Zach Ludlow. Zach. I wish I knew. I wish I could shine light on this.

01:00:34:20 - 01:00:40:23
Unknown
Okay. I'm just coming up with something.

01:00:41:01 - 01:01:12:09
Unknown
I think, Zach, it's about. You can't stop or change this thing, but what you have some control over is yourself. So you knowing how important it is for you to say stay true to what it is that you are believing and what your motivations are and how you're going to. Help your creative light shine through taking care of your physical body.

01:01:12:11 - 01:01:43:05
Unknown
Feeding your mind with positive things. You're going to be creating the best you can create. I don't think we can do anything other than take care of ourselves and the communities that we hold close, but are happy we have that control over our happiness. Because if we're looking for too much happiness in that algorithmic world, it is.

01:01:43:09 - 01:01:52:02
Unknown
We're just not going to find it. So we've got to really see where to keep our vision pure.

01:01:52:04 - 01:02:16:01
Unknown
How's that for light? Beautiful, beautiful I love it, I love it, it's true, it's true. We can always take care of ourselves. Petrillo. My God, it's been so wonderful to speak with you today. I have been looking forward to this for weeks. Please check out Petrilla site. Please watch out for her upcoming book and please follow her on Instagram and LinkedIn.

01:02:16:01 - 01:02:38:05
Unknown
Rebuild with petrol. Rebuild with petrol and rebuild his abbreviated read rebuild. Thank you everybody so much for joining us today. This has been another edition of the Developing Life podcast. Thank you everybody. Nice to see you all.

01:02:38:07 - 01:02:47:22
Unknown
Oh, thank you so much. But true love