From Rolling Stones to Radical Truth: How One Designer Continually Reinvents Himself- and What You Can Learn | ft. Stefan Sagmeister

After designing album covers for icons like the Rolling Stones, Stefan Sagmeister sensed his work growing stale. He took a radical step: shut down his studio for a year—every seven years. 

In this Developing Life Podcast episode, Sagmeister explains how that sabbatical transformed his career, leading him away from commercial work and toward a new practice mixing data and art. 

We unpack the risks and rewards of micro‑retirements (mini‑sabbaticals Gen Z is searching for) and why letting go of success can unlock deeper meaning. 

Continue Your Journey:

• Get Stefan’s book Now Is Better and see his data‑driven art
  Explore his evolving portfolio and exhibitions → Stefan Sagmeister official site
• Connect with Stefan on Linkedin → linkedin.com/in/stefan-sagmeister

🙏 Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and share the Developing Life Podcast. Your support helps us bring you deeper dives with world‑class creatives.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:05
Unknown
Today we're asking some very important questions. What if beauty was as important as function? What if design wasn't only about solving problems, but about creating meaningful and lasting joy?

00:00:13:07 - 00:00:48:04
Unknown
Our guest today has spent his career exploring exactly that. Stefan Sagmeister is a designer, storyteller and provocateur whose work has spanned music, art, branding and film. From collaborating with the Rolling Stones and okay! Go to co-leading Sagmeister and Walsh, he's pushed boundaries in ways that continue to ripple through creative industries worldwide. He's also one of the most frequently invited speakers and official Ted's history, taking the Ted talk stage five times to share his insights on happiness, beauty and creativity.

00:00:48:04 - 00:01:21:23
Unknown
With millions around the globe. With two Grammys, countless international awards and exhibitions in the world's most respected museums, Stephan has shown us that design is not just visual communication. It's a way of experiencing life itself. Today, alongside our host Heather Krank, we'll talk about Stefan's philosophy of sabbaticals, the stories behind projects like Beautiful Numbers and Ukraine, and what it means to stay curious and human in an industry that often prizes speed overdubs.

00:01:22:09 - 00:01:49:09
Unknown
Welcome, Stefan. It is such an honor to have you on the podcast. Thank you Heather. It's a pleasure to be here. And I just want to clarify, Stefan is not wearing a bathrobe. It's a beautiful shirt. Oh, it's a bathrobe. Look, when you're when you're deep in us in the camera. Viewpoint. Yes. Yes, it's a beautiful shirt.

00:01:49:11 - 00:02:23:14
Unknown
Okay, so right now you're on a sabbatical. And do you take these sabbaticals every seven years? Why seven years? I'm so curious. You know, that's basically how it came about initially after six years of the studio. I felt that the work was becoming repetitive and I really felt that I should do something about it. And it took me a year to overcome my angst and anxiety to actually do this.

00:02:23:16 - 00:03:03:10
Unknown
So it happened. The first sabbatical just happened to be after seven years. And then of course, I did look into it. And obviously the name sabbatical comes from the number seven. You know, it's from the oh, every seven years you should rest. So it, I'm not a big believer in these kind of numbers, but it's very odd that there was one time when I thought, yeah, for some other reasons, it would have made more sense for me to do it after six.

00:03:03:12 - 00:03:34:06
Unknown
And I said, well, I'll do it after six, but it felt too early. And then that reason fell away and I did it after seven again. And so it's also it's also strange to me that at no time this is my fourth sabbatical. I felt after the year. Oh it would be great to elongated I I wish it would be another six months I always felt and I'm at the very end of this sabbatical.

00:03:34:06 - 00:04:02:09
Unknown
It's only going to be another four weeks really. I've always felt that the year was just about the right time. I had one time also tried to but I don't, I do four months every year or three months every year. Yes a full year every seven years. And that felt too much like a holiday span. I didn't really go on holiday.

00:04:02:09 - 00:04:44:15
Unknown
I used it as a working sabbatical, but it felt the full year just works brilliantly for me. And every time I've done one, it feels like been at the start. The year is so long that I'm not quite can not really oversee the end and it's just fantastic to have this crazy amount of time in front of me that I can feel really however and meaning from if I would like doing that, I would also allow myself to sit on the beach for a while, but I already know right now that I don't get pleasure out of it.

00:04:44:17 - 00:05:26:23
Unknown
So in all, all of these sabbaticals really have been working sabbaticals, meaning like I tried to explore things that I don't have time or or the power or the strength to pursue when the studio is busy. Right? This one has been that way too, even though this probably has been the most close to my usual booking time because of the previous three sabbatical, my usual working time had to transformed into a sabbatical like time.

00:05:27:01 - 00:05:57:05
Unknown
Because. Because I did three sabbaticals. I really wanted to make some changes in the studio. Meaning like we are not. In the last six years we have not accepted any commercial work. Not because I hate commercial work, but because I felt that done enough of it in a very similar way. After the first sabbatical, I decided not to pursue more album covers for the same reason.

00:05:57:05 - 00:06:26:08
Unknown
I felt that I've done album covers. The number 46 wasn't as much fun as the number 40. I the number one that was. And of course, I was very aware that there was a lot of other things that are interesting to pursue like that makes perfect sense. I recently read your book Now Is Better, and I am very curious about the theory that you're pursuing right now.

00:06:26:08 - 00:06:50:20
Unknown
I'd love to read a quote really quick from your book. And then I've got a couple questions. So you state, quote, good design has to help someone. Good design has to delight someone. As designers, we must try to elevate beauty on the same level as function. We can't just be problem solvers. Many of our problems are so easy to solve.

00:06:51:00 - 00:07:24:19
Unknown
That pure problem solving becomes simply lazy. We need to solve design issues with delight. We need to be able to create joy. So my question to you is why are beauty, joy, and delight so important? And is one more important than the other? Well, I would say that. Why is being alive important? Why not? I mean, that's almost on the same level.

00:07:24:21 - 00:08:08:09
Unknown
I think all of us. Want to be delighted. All of us would rather be in a joyful state than in misery. And all of us would rather be in a beautiful surrounding than in an ugly surrounding. We have proof of that. I mean, this is I think this is all pretty logical anyway. But there is also very number based proof, meaning we know which cities people find the most beautiful because they have the largest visitor numbers.

00:08:08:11 - 00:08:42:02
Unknown
And Paris is always number one and Cincinnati isn't. It's very, very, very clear that most people around the world find Paris more beautiful than Cincinnati, which is the reason that they on holiday choose to go there as opposed to there. And when we have. Free choice on which places to go to. Almost all of us choose pretty places to go to.

00:08:42:03 - 00:09:05:18
Unknown
And we don't, which is why we don't find a lot of hotels in the, in the outskirts of our city where the cities where there is discount furniture stores and and gas stations and fast food restaurants, we might go there and we have to buy cheap furniture, but we don't really want to spend our holidays there.

00:09:05:23 - 00:09:38:19
Unknown
These are purely functional places that, I think that all of us want beauty or joy vis a vis their function, you know, and it's it's surprising to me that these kind of insights were already very much stated by the original modernists. Let's say nobody asked that question in the 19th century because the 19th century was obsessed with beauty.

00:09:38:21 - 00:10:09:09
Unknown
The point where it kind of became boring and sort of like swallowed over into kitsch, like, you know, a lot of you look at many 19th century paintings, there is some gorgeous ones, but there is also a lot of sunsets over prairies. And, you know, like there's a lot of things that we now kind of almost see as over in beauty, that beauty swaps over into kitsch.

00:10:09:11 - 00:10:53:02
Unknown
But in the 20th century, this stopped pretty much. On purpose by the modernists. Who said in the very beginning of the century, specifically after World War Two, that was so incredibly brutal that beauty might not by itself be a a value to pursue, because the nations that were involved in World War One were all the developed sort of first World nations, and clearly their value of beauty didn't save us from this incredible slaughter that was World War One.

00:10:53:03 - 00:11:18:05
Unknown
So there were a number of art, this Duchamp, for sure, but a good number of others who sort of actively sought to get beauty out of art. And I would say that the original modernists in design and architecture actually took form and beauty still very seriously. If you look at, Miss Vanderohe building, it is actually quite beautiful.

00:11:18:05 - 00:11:46:15
Unknown
If you look at, let's say, the Seagram Building in New York or many of his others, because form played a big role. And then if you looked at the people who studied at the powerhouse, even the very functional ones, let's say, like, Max Bell, who later on started the school in Ulm, which was known for being the most anal when it came to form and when it came to, being super functional.

00:11:46:17 - 00:12:22:08
Unknown
But Max built building a talk in the 50s in Switzerland basically said exactly that we will need to lift built the up on the exact same level as function. Because for one thing, beauty is a function in itself and we won't be able to create good work without it. Look, meaning a very simple example if I have this water class here, which is I would say a medium, it's a very well functioning water class.

00:12:22:08 - 00:12:52:10
Unknown
It's like drink water out of it very well. And from a beauty perspective, I think it's not bad that it's not fantastic. I would say somewhere I would give it somewhere in the middle of maybe I would give it a seven. Now this water class could function just as well as it does now, but it could be even more beautiful, which would mean that I would take even better care for it, and it would likely live even longer.

00:12:52:12 - 00:13:31:15
Unknown
If you look at a glass collection in a museum, the ones that survived are the beautiful ones, the ugly ones. People who didn't care about. So the longevity of a glass, which is clearly a function, is completely determined by its beauty and use. That's true in architecture. If you look at the Pantheon in Rome, the only building in the world that has been in terms in constant use for 2000 years, that's very much connected to its to its beauty.

00:13:31:17 - 00:13:53:04
Unknown
So if the pantheon would have been an ugly building, one of the many cultures that occupied Rome in the past 2000 years would have to, that thing would have ripped that thing down and replaced it with something else, because it has. It's in the center of Rome. It has a fantastic space that other people also wanted to occupy.

00:13:53:06 - 00:14:27:20
Unknown
But, I think every culture respected that. And that's been there's many, many examples of that, of beauty bringing functionality into design. So of course we should pursue it. What's beautiful. No pun intended. Speaking of beauty, I'd like to talk about the incredible artist Louise Bourgeois. You had the amazing honor of attending one of her salons, and you, showed her your your book.

00:14:27:20 - 00:14:54:20
Unknown
Make you look. And she was going to critique it. And then she looked at you and asked you if you wanted to be an artist. And you said, no, I'm very happy being a designer. So my question is, why Louise Bourgeois, if you're happy being a designer? But I had heard that she is allowing ten artists to come to her building for her building in Chelsea.

00:14:54:22 - 00:15:18:19
Unknown
Every Sunday. And you can apply and you have to bring the portfolio and it just I like I loved her work, so I thought, well, I'll write. That sounds great. What a fantastic thing to do on a Sunday. And, I immediately got in my head was one of those ten people. She was super tough.

00:15:18:21 - 00:15:53:14
Unknown
Definitely some people in out of those ten, which I suspected wouldn't be an artist any more. After getting, toasty. Yes. You know, she was really harsh, but at the same time, of course, unbelievably generous, because, I mean, there was no advantage for her in this, and it was unbelievably influential on me because I was so impressed that I immediately copied her and allowed ten designers.

00:15:53:16 - 00:16:38:00
Unknown
You know what? Monday evenings and when that became impractical because my travel schedule was so crazy. That, of course, inspired my Instagram account, which, you know, I'm still doing to this very day, where I review young designers work on Instagram. That actually, I've been doing this now for years, and I'm not sure if I'm going to continue because it this used to be a very lovely account where because my tone was, I hope, helpful.

00:16:38:02 - 00:17:03:23
Unknown
All the comments on the on, on my feet were also in that same vein. And I would say that in the last year or two that's changed where the comments became nasty and nasty towards the person that I'm reviewing. If that person is from the wrong country, let's say Russia or Israel, there is vitriol against that person.

00:17:03:23 - 00:17:32:15
Unknown
Oh wow. And just things became so politicized, but in a very stupid, very surface sort of way. People like, you know, like people comment. Some people comment nastily without even reading the caption, so they don't know what it's about. And who cares? Meaning like I don't need I don't need nastiness in my life. Let's put it this way.

00:17:32:17 - 00:17:58:23
Unknown
Yeah. So I'll see if this continues in that way. I'll do something else. Miscount maybe I don't know, but I don't care. I can also it's also possible that I just stop being on Instagram, if that's so, be there for a second. We were on Twitter early on. What a pretty big account. And then Twitter became so nasty, so called Twitter then that we just stopped.

00:17:59:02 - 00:18:26:16
Unknown
Maybe I don't have to be on this stuff if it's if it's a pleasure. If it's pleasant great. If it isn't well then let's do something else with my time. Yeah. Agreed. Okay, so speaking of politicized things, you, took a show, of your data paintings in 2023 called Now is better to. It was a gorgeous show.

00:18:26:16 - 00:18:50:00
Unknown
It started off and the Patrick Parrish Gallery in New York. And then you followed this exhibition into central Tokyo. Your aim was to bring this message of optimism, despite everything that's going on right now. And you focus a lot on long term positive outcomes using design and data. So my question is, how did you come up with this concept?

00:18:50:00 - 00:19:24:12
Unknown
And not just the concept, but the unusual execution as well? Well, that's easy to tell. The literally the first impetus to do something in that direction came when I was a resident at the American Academy in Rome. And they have this very fantastic food program. So the food is delicious, meaning all 70 residents, designers, artists, filmmakers, writers show up for dinner and the way they organize dinner is that you all sit next to somebody else.

00:19:24:14 - 00:19:57:10
Unknown
And these are the, you know, 70 smart people. They all have it all work on something related to Rome. So there's always something to talk about. So this is a very salon like atmosphere. And one night the the husband of one of the invited artists who was a lawyer, working at the European Court, told me that what we are seeing right now in Poland, Hungary and Brazil at the time really means the end of modern democracy.

00:19:57:12 - 00:20:22:21
Unknown
And when I didn't, I didn't comment much during dinner, but I looked it up in the studio right afterwards. You need more than democracy. When did it start? What's the story? And it turned out that 200 years ago, there was a single Democratic country in the world, United States. 100 years ago, there were 16, and now we have 86 democratic countries.

00:20:22:23 - 00:20:52:13
Unknown
It's the first time in human history that more than half of the world's population lives in, within the democratic system. This is not an opinion. This is fact, meaning this is the United Nations say right now there's 86 democratic countries. And so that means that this smart lawyer who read five newspapers in three languages every, every day had no idea about the state of the world.

00:20:52:15 - 00:21:19:15
Unknown
Zero. He had a completely, utterly wrong idea about not only the state of the world, but particularly about the state of democracy. He saw. It's the end of modern democracy when we were very, very close, eight years away, only from the absolute peak. The world has never, like the broad eight years prior, had never, ever been more democratic, ever.

00:21:19:17 - 00:21:59:11
Unknown
And so his impression that it became a tiny little, little bit less democratic, and that that would mean the end of modern democracy was completely demonstrate the bloody wrong, because so many of my friends have very similar impressions. I thought, oh, this is a really juicy direction to pursue for a communication designer like myself. And when I looked into it, I discovered that this is true for almost every direction of human development.

00:21:59:13 - 00:22:42:17
Unknown
I give you an hour, I give you a little example. A couple of months ago, this helicopter went into a, into a airliner in Washington. And I think it created I didn't count them exactly 4 or 5 or six front page articles in the New York Times, going in all sorts of directions of how terrible the security right now is in the aviation industry, how, how this government cut and that government cut impacted it badly.

00:22:42:17 - 00:23:17:10
Unknown
And so on. And your impression would be that. It's kind of dangerous to fly right now. Even though I am convinced that the journalist at the New York Times would know these facts before that incident, the US airlines flew for two light years without the fatal incident. So you have to basically, you have to take the measurement system of space travel to describe.

00:23:17:12 - 00:23:51:19
Unknown
How incredible the incredible distances that US airlines flew without the fatal, accident. But none of this ever made the front page of the New York Times. And the reason for that is because we all, including me, love terrible news. We just it's just much more interesting to us. Positive news are super boring. And so my challenge as a communication designer is to make these positive news not super boring.

00:23:51:21 - 00:24:32:03
Unknown
But that's a challenge. It's very, very difficult. And, the reason we are doing this on historic paintings, cut them out and insert news, new things that look like minimal art. But really, our data visualizations is, of course, because I looked when visualizing long term facts, it made sense to do them on a on a in a medium that already has proven its longevity, namely paintings from the 17th, 18th and 19th century.

00:24:32:05 - 00:24:59:13
Unknown
Or we are right now in the camera doing sculptures from the 18th and 19th century. Oh wow. Basically cut up what? Oh my God and add things to it. Well, that's one I actually found. We're doing one right now. We have. I found is is a sculpture, an 18th century sculpture here in Mexico of Jesus that had no arms and legs.

00:24:59:15 - 00:25:29:00
Unknown
So there we could just basically sculpt new arms and legs, almost like putty scissors. I was arms and legs and the the cast them in bronze. And, I actually have just coming back from the foundry. Oh yeah, you'll have them powder coated after that. So you see the difference between his original 18th century body and the newly cast, legs.

00:25:29:00 - 00:26:04:06
Unknown
But then, of course, the these are also, data visualizations. Wow. Oh, that's such a brilliant idea. And also, it's it. I think it works. We've been exhibiting them pretty much around the world. And meaning from Tokyo, Seoul, China, to many European places. It works as a it works meaning like I am not independently wealthy.

00:26:04:08 - 00:26:35:13
Unknown
So I also need to like I want to sell them reason because ultimately I want that sculpture to be in somebody's living room as a reminder that what they just saw on X does not mean the end of the world. But also, I need these things because I buy original art it up and ship it and then it's a, it's the produce, the inserts.

00:26:35:15 - 00:27:01:04
Unknown
There's a lot of difficulty. So it's not a, it's not a cheap process. And so that money somehow also come back in as a, so that this whole thing is a sustainable project and doesn't just end when I run out of money to do. And but that also turned out to be true meaning the because these things are pretty, we sell them quite well.

00:27:01:06 - 00:27:36:06
Unknown
So I'd be doing a mixture of museum shows or institutional shows. There's one opening up here in Mexico on the 25th, and we're doing also shows and commercial galleries. There's one opening up in Madrid in a commercial gallery on September 11th. So it's like it's a mixture. And I find we've done fantastically a show like this also in Ukraine, it was so successful that it even traveled in Ukraine.

00:27:36:06 - 00:28:16:21
Unknown
It's not it's. And also went to Kiev. I would say I got the most positive feedback ever in Ukraine. Wow. I'm super apprehensive actually the whole thing. Yeah. Because I said on a German podcast, the podcast, the, the interviewer asked me, would you bring a message like this positive message to Ukraine? And I said, no, I wouldn't, because I think that people who have bumps falling on the head are very much interested in the fact that fewer people die in boats in wars statistically now than they used to.

00:28:16:23 - 00:28:40:15
Unknown
But that's not something that you can hear. And the woman from the Ukraine, from Ukraine contacted me and said, no, I think you're wrong. We would love this message. And we did a originally we did, a zoom call with an audience. So I was projected on a boat and there was like 80 people in that room. And that room was super excited about this message.

00:28:40:15 - 00:29:02:19
Unknown
Like somebody said, oh, why don't we get your book translated in Ukrainian? And I, I thought that that's never going to happen. But it did. And it the first printing sold out immediately. Wow. I think they're either on the second or third printing. Then they said, let's bring the exhibition here. And I also thought, never will.

00:29:02:20 - 00:29:33:13
Unknown
It will work. Yeah. When I inquired why that would be my friend, my new friend Andrei, who is a designer in Kiev, thought that if you have actual problems in your life, you are much more thankful for something beautiful, for something positive. And that might be that you don't have to go into the bunker and you can sleep through the night.

00:29:33:14 - 00:29:49:07
Unknown
Or it might be a positive design exhibition. And I have to say that I got the most pushback on this message from people who do the best.

00:29:49:09 - 00:29:54:06
Unknown
Like explain that. Meaning that.

00:29:54:08 - 00:30:25:18
Unknown
People who are wealthy and are doing really well and are in a situation in their life think that this positive message is kind of surface. See that I don't quite understand the real troubles of the world. They think that, that it's sort of Pollyanna ish. And, that it's even sort of commercial in some ways.

00:30:25:19 - 00:31:00:14
Unknown
And I found the people in the, in Ukraine, there was not one person who, who, who I talk to, not one, but I mean in the a I did and I did a talk in front of 3000 people in Kiev. And we had a book signing afterwards. And at the book signing you can talk more 1 to 1, not more, because there was a gigantic line, but at least some words and I, I can tell you the sentence, thank you so much for bringing this message to Ukraine.

00:31:00:16 - 00:31:08:05
Unknown
I've heard it hundreds of times, hundreds. Well, so it's interesting. It's,

00:31:08:07 - 00:31:36:14
Unknown
The I think one of the main reasons for me to do it and we'll make an installation that shows exactly that here in Guadalajara, in the museum, is that there was a very, very significant survey done last year with 10,000 participants, which is unusual because in science you normally have 1500. So it's a very expensive survey to do 10,000 people around the world.

00:31:36:14 - 00:32:06:00
Unknown
These were all between 15 and 25 year old olds, and 54% of them. More than half thought that humanity will end during their lifetime. No, seriously. Yeah. So these people sit in their bedrooms depressed and anxious and don't do anything about global warming. They don't do anything there. They don't really push anything forward about the big problems.

00:32:06:01 - 00:32:46:04
Unknown
And I know it from myself, I just do. I'm so much more useful when I'm in good shape. And I'm not useful at all when I'm depressed because anxiety and depression are not empowering. Yeah. Debilitating. So this you know this situation we have basically all the news, the tradition from the traditional news sources but also on social media are negative, creates this atmosphere that everything is terrible.

00:32:46:06 - 00:33:14:14
Unknown
Test consequences and meaning I would say one of the consequences is that the extremes on both sides are empowered by that. You know I think that's even Make America Great Again only works if a majority of people think that everything is terrible. If I ask Republicans when was it great. Like what was the time that you're talking about ten years ago.

00:33:14:14 - 00:33:47:04
Unknown
Couldn't have been because Obama was in charge. Was it 20 years ago. Well 911 and the beginning of the Iraq and the, and the Afghanistan war. 50 years ago, Ronald Reagan went with the exact same line. No. Yes. It, Trump took that line from Ronald Reagan from 50 years ago. So ultimately, America was never great in the same way that the world was never great.

00:33:47:06 - 00:34:30:05
Unknown
We actually live for almost any situation, for almost any human development. It is now better than it used to be. Wow. But that's so unbelievably easy to forget. It's, you know, one of the most impressive things. And this is data from a Nobel Prize winner. Is that in 1700, in France, the average person's calorie intake was lower than it is today in the Republic of Congo, which is among the the most malnourished countries on Earth.

00:34:30:07 - 00:34:55:23
Unknown
Wow. So it's just, the it's also, I think some of it is at fault. The way we learn history, because we learn history about the absolute 0.0 1% elite. Yes. The French king had a lot to eat and read very well, but 90% of France at that time lived in extreme poverty. And the same was true for most of Europe.

00:34:55:23 - 00:35:40:21
Unknown
England did a little bit better, but for most of Europe, most that 90%, not most people, 90% lived in extreme poverty. And so, most of us would rather be alive than that, and we would rather live in a democracy. And then in a dictatorship, and we would rather be we would rather be healthy then sick, and we would rather be at peace than at war, and we would rather be educated than stupid and things can be these things can be, measured like there is very proper, solid scientific measurement about these things.

00:35:40:23 - 00:36:12:15
Unknown
And all of these things have improved. I love that. Okay. So I'm going to move over to, as we're on this topic, one other sort of interesting controversial area you worked on a project called Move Our Money, and this campaign hit some success around 2010. And what it did was it reduced, unnecessary weapons programs and Pentagon waste by 15% in order to reallocate these funds to health and educational programs.

00:36:12:17 - 00:36:51:07
Unknown
But in 2016, Trump reverse this. Is this project something you would consider rebuilding in the future or what happened to it? I mean, it basically, it was a program started by Ben Cone from Ben and Jerry's ice Cream fame. He put 200 CEOs of large companies together that would support this, that could say, yes, we can actually cut 15% of the Pentagon budget without changing the power of our military at all and move it to health care, education.

00:36:51:13 - 00:37:30:23
Unknown
And under Obama, this became successful. Probably the only NGO project that I've ever been involved in where we could say, okay, we achieved the goal. Let's cut the whole thing down. Obviously we did not do we did not achieve that goal long term. And. Yes, absolutely. I mean, that, that and I don't think that this program or this, a campaign like this has any chance under the current administration, you know, if I looked at the so-called, big beautiful bill.

00:37:31:01 - 00:38:19:23
Unknown
It pretty much is the exact opposite of how I would allocate money. But you know, that's, that's where we are. Right now or but you know from my own point of view he has another three years and then it's going to be different. Yes Bill. Able bill sees something different. And you know the, the idea that the United States right now is spending more on their defense than all adversaries combined seems a very strange outlook, allocation of money, very strange.

00:38:20:01 - 00:38:44:17
Unknown
And we I think that we all see it look in New York City. I, I pay exactly the same amount of taxes, percentage wise, than my brother does in Austria. They're exactly the same. Wow. And but the difference is my brother has fantastic health care. His kids, his kids not only go to very good schools for free, but it's.

00:38:44:23 - 00:39:07:01
Unknown
They go all the way to university for free. Wow. The all the all the infrastructure is in pretty damn good shape. The streets, there's no potholes and all of that stuff. And I pay the same amount of money to my government in in New York, but get none of that. Wow. And I think one of the culprits there.

00:39:07:03 - 00:39:48:07
Unknown
But it's not just one I mean, there's a good number of reasons, like with all these things, but one of the culprits there, of course, is that the incredible military spending or the incredible Pentagon spending. Makes sense. So if you were to take this idea of looking at things over a long chunk of time over the past 20 years of your own career, do you feel like your current what you've done in the past, basically informing what you're doing right now, and how do you feel about, your future and what you're going to be doing, say, in the next five years?

00:39:48:09 - 00:40:17:07
Unknown
Yes, of course. I mean, but that's I'm not unusual. I think that for most designers, what they did in the past informs what they are doing right now. So I think that that's a logical way of being a designer or being a human. That's. Yeah. I don't think I'm unusual. Have at all. I think the because I've been doing a sabbatical every seven years.

00:40:17:09 - 00:40:50:11
Unknown
These have been fantastic times to re calibrate the direction of the studio that, you know, when it's very busy and it's very difficult for me, but I think for many people to quickly change directions. I mean, there is a possibility that if I would have never done a sabbatical, I would still be doing album covers and and wonder why business is so terrible.

00:40:50:13 - 00:41:18:03
Unknown
Because a possibility, It's I think that the studio is so dearly separated by these sabbaticals that you had an exhibition in New York last year, and that was the ordering principle of the exhibition, meaning the first seven years, the second seven years, the third seven years, and the first seven years. Because you could really tell that these were kind of different studios.

00:41:18:05 - 00:42:09:23
Unknown
Interesting. And so, but ultimately, I would say probably the biggest advantage of the sabbaticals is that it allowed me to see design still as a calling rather than it's deteriorating into a career or even as a job. Many of my students, when I get them see design is a calling and once they're out of the university for a number of years and I meet them on the street and we talk, I have the feeling that they're now doing a job, you know, which is, you know, they are happy when it's 5:00 in the evening or six or when the weekend comes around, and so on and so forth.

00:42:10:01 - 00:42:12:12
Unknown
So.

00:42:12:14 - 00:42:45:13
Unknown
Yeah. I think that I can still see it that way, but particularly, I think, it made sure that I can do the things that I feel are correct for where I am in my life. And I especially specifically with this project, the, the, the new exhibition is called finally, Something Good. Indirection. And,

00:42:45:15 - 00:43:22:07
Unknown
I feel that that's what I'm supposed to do. Like, now, you know, like I have to learn the language of design and 3D. I think after the first sabbatical, it became clear to me that I should use this language of design for something else rather than promoting and selling. Not that I hate promoting and selling. I think it's totally fine, but it is odd that we as designers or specifically as, let's say, communication designers.

00:43:22:09 - 00:43:59:22
Unknown
You go to school for it, we study it, we learn it and then. We only speak commercially in it, you know, meaning I'm learning Spanish right now. It wouldn't occurred to me to learn Spanish and only speak commercial messages in Spanish. It would be idiotic. And. But because that's where the money is. I would say by far the vast majority of design studios only speak commercially.

00:43:59:22 - 00:44:26:06
Unknown
And it's a powerful language. And it can you can speak in any, you can speak in any direction. You can speak personally. You can speak politically. You can speak what you think about the world, the meaning in any direction. It's and it's a very specific language as this combination between visuals that can be photographed or illustrated was captured.

00:44:26:08 - 00:45:15:20
Unknown
And it's, it's a very specific language that in its specificity is very powerful. And so, I mean, you know, we still get requests for commercial jobs. And I, I always, you know, give them to designers I've worked with in the past or studios that I'm close to. It's, I just think it's more interesting for me, but also more meaningful to use this language that I've really learned and that many, many, many clients in the past relied on me or the studio to guide them to make that message powerful, whatever that was.

00:45:15:21 - 00:45:41:23
Unknown
And so, now it's said it's it's more meaningful to talk that language into a subject that I find important. That makes perfect sense. So do you, now that you're showing so much in museums and galleries, do you still consider yourself a designer in a gallery, or do you feel like you're on the edge between design and art?

00:45:42:02 - 00:46:17:05
Unknown
I know they communicate differently, but the vehicle you're using, the museums seems more artistic. But, when. When I look at other people's work, I don't give a shit. You know, I don't care if it's done by a designer or an artist, you know? Is it good or not? Good. Does it touch me or doesn't? It doesn't. As a designer myself, when I'm a doer, I kind of have to care because I'm asked just like you do now.

00:46:17:06 - 00:46:47:02
Unknown
And they're like, in general what I think everything that we do at the studio is design, because ultimately we want to communicate. This is also the background that I'm coming from. But there is the best, best, best explanation that I've ever heard comes from a German philosopher. And I'm normally not in the habit of quoting Adorno which is the philosopher.

00:46:47:04 - 00:47:43:09
Unknown
And he basically says there is no such thing as 100% functionality, because even the most functional cog is somehow informed by ideas like transparency that's come out of the art world, and there is no such thing as 100% non functionality, because even the most artistic piece of art where the artist didn't give a shit at all about if anybody sees it also Bill have some kind of functionality, possibly just because I stand in front of it and make a selfie and use it as a background for myself and give it functionality so that the owner says there is only a span between, let's say, 1% functionality and 99% functionality.

00:47:43:11 - 00:48:35:21
Unknown
Or you could express it differently between 99% artistic endeavor and 1% artistic endeavor. But there is no zero and no go. And hundreds and everything there is somewhere in between. Now of course, my work now on that scale is probably closer to the art world than it is to the design world. But even when we did design, album covers are already much more artistic then I don't know the design of text forms, and I chose to design album covers and not text forms, even though I actually think the design of text forms would be super important, then it would be fantastic if the text form would be designed by a very good designer.

00:48:35:23 - 00:49:09:03
Unknown
So yeah, but in general we tend to celebrate people who make pieces with little functionality over people who make pieces with a lot of functionality. And I can explain that to you. Let's say in architecture we celebrate the person who designs a cathedral over the person who designs a factory. The factory is much more functional than the cathedral.

00:49:09:05 - 00:49:47:02
Unknown
The cathedral basically has no toilets, no kitchen, no sleeping quarters. It's, it's it's a space not very functional. But we'll be love it much more than the factory that has all that. But it's not very beautiful. And the same is true for product design. We celebrate the designer of the Ferrari much more than the designer of the cement truck, who, even though a cement truck, is much more functional and in graphic design, it would be the same.

00:49:47:04 - 00:50:15:09
Unknown
Many of us know the designer who designed the magazine page in all, something bad that was completely unreadable. We know who that is. We don't know who designed the text form, even though arguably the text form is a much more important piece of design than a music magazine. Interesting. Do you think that's because beauty Again comes into play?

00:50:15:11 - 00:50:26:08
Unknown
I think so, I think yeah, we enjoy and being and that artistic element, the decision to.

00:50:26:10 - 00:50:56:14
Unknown
Create an article in a music magazine that's completely unreadable and something that is an artistic decision. Yes. That, a lot of the design community admired. Yeah. Sadly, I think if the text form would be designed beautifully and gorgeously and would be a symbol of would be, could be used as a as a guidepost for other text forms to emulate.

00:50:56:16 - 00:51:24:03
Unknown
That designer could possibly also create some admiration. But, as it is of course, meaning I don't know who designed the US text forms and I don't it probably was a bureaucrat. Yeah, but I agree. We are just about the question portion of this interview. If you have questions for Sagmeister, feel free to drop them in the chat.

00:51:24:05 - 00:51:53:10
Unknown
You are also welcome to turn your camera on and raise your hand if you would like to speak to him directly. I have one last question for you before I jump into the chat here. My final question is, what are you reading? I can tell you right now I'm in the mix. I am reading a book, a social History of Elizabeth in England.

00:51:53:12 - 00:52:15:08
Unknown
There is sadly, sadly say that there is very little community. Great or very few great social histories out there that are not about the queen or the king or the noble, but that are about the people. The one that I'm reading is about the people, and it is.

00:52:15:10 - 00:52:45:02
Unknown
Very interesting. You know, I give you a little, a little tidbit from it that say, even though Elizabeth was known as a very enlightened queen, you were, of course, not allowed to see anything against her. If you did, if you wrote anything against her, not only was your hand hacked off. Oh, that's a pretty good copyright. Direction.

00:52:45:04 - 00:53:15:09
Unknown
Also, the person who published your writing, his hand was also hacked off. What? Yes. So basically, I mean, you know, we are talking this is 15 some. So we are talking Middle Ages. Yeah. No, this was the idea of, if you said anything against the Dear Leader. Wow. And many, many, many, many other, interesting tidbits in there.

00:53:15:10 - 00:53:46:01
Unknown
Yeah, that's, actually, that's the book. That's right. Now, next to myself here. Wow. All right, we've got some questions coming in here. Devon says I would love to know outside of your work, what are the small, everyday things that reliably bring you joy or beauty? The things that remind you why this philosophy matters and your career has included books, exhibitions, film and teaching.

00:53:46:07 - 00:54:15:01
Unknown
Which of these mediums do you feel has been the most powerful in shaping how people actually live? With your ideas? Excellent. So I would say from the joy from the everyday joy of meeting here, of course, I would say is the view of the garden like I'm working all day, but it's it's so lovely to look out there and there is gigantic pots of water that attract a lot of birds.

00:54:15:01 - 00:54:32:03
Unknown
I am not a bird watcher, but if I would be able to get a pretty significant list together just basically by working here, because it's amazing the number and amount of birds that are coming by.

00:54:32:05 - 00:54:55:01
Unknown
And I would say, here we go. That I harbor one of the joys is going for dinner every night night. And we know by partner our are cooking. So we basically go out every single, every single evening. Sometimes it's just the two of us. Many times we meet other people. It's very easy to meet people here, and that's all of us joyful.

00:54:55:01 - 00:55:18:03
Unknown
And I think that right after this, I probably check 1 or 2 things and then we go out for early dinners. So I probably by well, not probably. I know we have a 530 dinner set up, which we sometimes have difficulties booking it that early because a lot of the restaurants only open at 7 or 730. Let's hear lunch.

00:55:18:03 - 00:55:44:08
Unknown
Go so late that he often book in lunch places. They close after us. Wow. Yeah. Oh. That's nice. Okay. Oh, gosh. That was a second. Oh, yeah. The second part is your career has included books, exhibition, film and teaching. Which of these mediums do you feel has been the most powerful in shaping how people actually live with your ideas?

00:55:44:09 - 00:56:29:15
Unknown
You know, strangely, I think the exhibitions by Pacifically, the Louch exhibitions, because they did some mixing. I'm not talking about some graphic design exhibition at some gallery, you know, that has, you know, a thousand people. But we did some very large exhibitions that had hundreds of thousands of people at those large exhibitions, then also generate an incredible amount of press, like I remember with an exhibition in Vienna, and which that museum had a fantastic woman that did press, and she sent me a press guide afterwards that was this many give us like two phone books.

00:56:29:17 - 00:56:54:11
Unknown
Wow. Copies of articles that appeared about that exhibition. And so I felt that was a very, a very great medium to communicate, which I didn't feel before, like we've done some designing exhibitions where I felt, okay, 300 people show up to show up at the opening. And then for the rest of the six weeks, the exhibition is up.

00:56:54:13 - 00:57:29:11
Unknown
The museum is empty. And I thought, oh, I can do, I can do this kind of thing with a talk that's much less expensive and much less work to do than to put that exhibition together with all the expenses that are associated with it the shipping, the creation, the blah blah blah, blah blah. So from that point, that's also why I feel this combination now of doing physical things.

00:57:29:13 - 00:57:55:23
Unknown
Is a valid way to communicate, because not only can we show them and we can get people into the museum or the gallery, but also they are bought and live on and they're expensive. So I can I can count that these things will live on for decades, possibly centuries. Oh. Oh, wow. So which is, you know, not the case.

00:57:55:23 - 00:58:27:22
Unknown
I of course, had long dreams about album covers, that they also have some longevity. Yes. Which turned out to be wrong, you know, like basically once they were transformed into, into, into files, most people got rid of the album covers. And so, a medium that I felt was elevated for me by being, you know, something that you didn't throw away.

00:58:27:23 - 00:58:50:14
Unknown
One of the few packages you didn't throw away ultimately got thrown out anyway, like in many cases. Yeah. All right. We've got another question here from Chris Martin, and he's asking, why do you think people care more about corporate logo rebrands rather than injustices, local or global?

00:58:50:16 - 00:59:22:07
Unknown
Well, I don't think that they care more about that. I think that within the design community, that might be the case. And you have a couple of, you know. I don't know, sort of rebrands gone bad. That's, you know, create, that create sort of like a desire to dampen it by a lot of people. And we've had a couple of those in the last couple of years.

00:59:22:07 - 00:59:54:06
Unknown
I would say, that some that were so significant that it questioned the, the longevity of the, of, of the company. Nuh You know, like a British car company comes to mind. Yes. And I think that specifically I don't, I don't think that we it's, you know, let me start again. I think it's in that same vein.

00:59:54:08 - 01:00:24:01
Unknown
I think the only rebrands that really get a lot of attention are the catastrophic ones. Very rarely the fantastic ones. And we've had those as well. Yeah, a lot of attention simply because we love stories about catastrophes. Be them, be it, be it scandals. Be the scandalous or be the natural catastrophes, or be de, planes going down, or or rebrands going bad.

01:00:24:02 - 01:01:03:18
Unknown
But I think in general most of the attention would still be elsewhere. So it's I never really participated. In taking down the rebrand because I found that this whole. World is very difficult to judge if you haven't been part, if you haven't been in the room. Most people when they, you know, went against the rebrand on Instagram, whatever they do it have, I don't know the brief.

01:01:03:21 - 01:01:30:09
Unknown
I don't know what the goal was. Don't but what really happened. And yes of course you can have an opinion as a designer you're absolutely 100% entitled to it. It's the actually you know specifically that it was Jessica but the inside, my son watched it quite a lot of brands and quite some original ones, some rebrands.

01:01:30:11 - 01:01:55:10
Unknown
I think we actually got away very, very easily. I mean, I don't think we had a single catastrophe, and I don't think we had a single shitstorm there. Not one. But I have friends, of course, who that happened to, and from there I see that.

01:01:55:12 - 01:02:41:21
Unknown
That those shit storms are not all us or granted, there are some. I think that some had that that really were ill inspired. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. We've got one more from Ryan Brandel who says, in response to I and on the topic of challenging our assumptions about decline and creativity as the world becomes dependent on the AI, are you concerned about the potential stagnation of human creativity and, well, design in general, fall victim to good enough solutions as a side effect to the masses, using AI?

01:02:41:22 - 01:03:20:20
Unknown
I actually don't think so. It's I the the question in general is a difficult one because people I normally trust are very divided about it. And people who know more about the development and the future of AI. See it's quite differently from each other which is. No, I haven't quite seen that this other big technology development, meaning that didn't you know I'm old enough to have witnessed the desktop revolution and this was not the case then.

01:03:20:22 - 01:03:38:08
Unknown
Then you had half of the experts say, oh my God, this is evil. And the other half saying, no, this is fantastic. In general, though, because I did I spent so much time over the last years looking at.

01:03:38:10 - 01:04:08:11
Unknown
Development, human development and this, that of course, also how technology developed. I think that in the past we've always used new technology for good and bad, but more for good and less for bad. You know, my usual example is this, that mentioned off the hammer. More of us built the house than killed the neighbor. And I think it's going to be the same with AI.

01:04:08:12 - 01:04:36:00
Unknown
We're going to have a lot of problems because people of course will use it and have fun with tickets for bad. But I ultimately believe that be a better, be a more better than we are worse. And we will use it more for fantastic development. That, of course, will get less attention than the people that use it terribly, which is all of us Choosier, which is.

01:04:36:01 - 01:05:25:04
Unknown
He has so much about deepfakes and the little about the unbelievable developments of decoding, molecules and the the revolutions that are happening in a number of scientific directions. Just to see which just more interesting. And, So I ultimately believe and I don't for a second, I think that second part of the question, I don't for a second believe that it will diminish human creativity, because I actually think that it will spoon us on.

01:05:25:06 - 01:05:55:19
Unknown
There will be things that we don't really want to have done by AI. You'll see this already with the backlash against streaming platforms that will put some AI songs in there. I think you will know there are certain things that we don't want a machine to do for us. We've got this bathrobe thing that's really assured is hand embroidered.

01:05:55:21 - 01:06:23:20
Unknown
And I paid, I was willingly paying a significant extra amount for it, because it's very clear to me that somebody spent hours do this by hand. Now this shirt would also be possible. This embroidery you could actually do with a machine but it would look slightly different. And I paid extra for it because I wanted it to be crafty.

01:06:23:22 - 01:06:54:18
Unknown
And I think that similar things and meaning. Look at the development in Brooklyn. You have a very significant part of the population of definitely northern Brooklyn being involved in digital jobs and nowhere else, probably in the United States. You see so much craft people making jams and mail ballots, putting pickled, put, putting pickles into things, all handmade things.

01:06:54:18 - 01:07:26:17
Unknown
I meaning my partner, she used to be a designer of interfaces for virtual reality and is now making chandeliers out of porcelain. Wow. Because of that desire of making something, and I think that I used to believe that this haptic desire had something to do with my age. And I don't believe that anymore, because I see so many young people being completely fascinated by it.

01:07:26:17 - 01:08:04:09
Unknown
I think that it's ultimately human, that there is a that the digital world can end so many things fantastically, but not all, and that we have a desire for human interaction and we have a desire, I mean, look, so far still, most universities went back to in-person after they were completely digital. And some and I see this with conferences of course some, some things do remain digital.

01:08:04:11 - 01:08:35:08
Unknown
I don't have to necessarily fly to Tokyo anymore to touch a design competition. I can do this online and that is a good thing. But many of the other conferences I still believe, still want to be in-person, and I believe that is going to be the case with many objects that we want something haptic, that, of course, eventually in another ten years, 20 years probably might be made by a robot, who knows?

01:08:35:10 - 01:08:59:14
Unknown
But for example, in my case, since I buy 18th century art or 17th or 19th century art, that's not they're not going to be replaced by. But it's possible that the robot would paint that probably do a good job, but it's not going to be the same. It's not going to be 200 years old. It's won't have that history.

01:08:59:15 - 01:09:25:05
Unknown
It won't have that patina. It's not going to be that same. And I believe that that will remain to be part of us being human, that we would like that sort of thing that is not made by the machine. And, and I might be wrong.

01:09:25:07 - 01:09:51:12
Unknown
That's also that's also possible. Yeah. My, my crystal ball in the past has not been the most clear. Yeah. Yeah, I think, well, I like that. Any other questions? Here we are. We are? Well, we are ten minutes over time. Just want to make sure I've covered everything. I think we I think we've got it.

01:09:51:14 - 01:10:14:15
Unknown
All right, let me this, Well, thank you so much, Stefan. This is just a huge honor. I am so glad I finally got to speak with you. And thank you to for everybody who showed up today with your wonderful questions. Have a wonderful afternoon. Wonderful dinner for you, Stefan. And I hope to see you guys again on the developing life.

01:10:14:17 - 01:10:26:06
Unknown
It's been a, It's been a real pleasure. Very good way to spend a afternoon in Mexico. Thank you. Thank you. Stefan. Perfect. Thanks a lot. Thank you.