Creativity, Identity & the Power of Starting Over | ft. Chris Martin

Chris Martin doesn’t sugarcoat what it takes to survive as a modern creative. From the highs of building a design career to the struggles of burnout, identity, and starting over, he opens up in ways you rarely hear on podcasts.

In this episode of The Developing Life Podcast- hosted by Heather Crank- we talk about:

• The human side of working in a “make it or break it” industry.
• Why leaving projects behind can be the most liberating thing you do.
• The importance of curiosity, play, and honesty in staying relevant.

If you’ve ever felt stuck or invisible in your creative journey, this episode is a must-watch.

Check it out:

• Chris' Podcast gettingworktowork.com
• Chris' Substack chrismartinwrites.substack.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:19
Unknown
Today we're asking, what if boredom and burnout wasn't the end, but the spark of a new beginning? But if stepping back from your work was actually the doorway to deeper creativity, curiosity and joy, few people embody that journey more than today's guest, Chris Martin. For over two decades, Chris has been exploring the edges of creativity through film making, podcasting, writing, and teaching.

00:00:26:01 - 00:00:57:10
Unknown
Building a career that's as curious as it is inspiring. In 2006, he founded Chris Martin Studios, partnering with creatives, nonprofits and independent voices to help them share their stories with clarity and heart. A decade later, he launched the podcast Getting Work to Work, which is now produced. Over 900 episodes earned a spot in the top 5% of podcasts worldwide and become a go to for anyone wrestling with creative work, curiosity and career transitions.

00:00:57:12 - 00:01:25:22
Unknown
Today, Chris is writing his first book, A more Curious Journey, a reflection of his lifelong belief that creativity is not just about output, but about living with wonder. And this episode of the Developing Life podcast hosted by Heather Frank. We'll talk about that powerful moment where the break becomes the beginning. Together, we'll explore what it means to hill creativity, to find laughter in the serious and why curiosity may just be our best antidote to burnout.

00:01:27:01 - 00:01:49:10
Unknown
Welcome, Chris Martin to the Developing Life podcast. Dang, that was amazing. Can you follow me everywhere I go? Because, like, if I could introduce myself like that all the time, I think my life would be a lot more different. So thank you for that. You're so welcome. You earned it. All right. So let's just get right to it.

00:01:49:11 - 00:02:18:13
Unknown
Several years ago, I stumbled across you, and I was just drawn by your interview. Style is just fantastic. And I got in touch with you. And we have kind of gotten to know each other over the years. My first question to you is, how did you start getting work to work? What led you to that? I was teaching at the time at a local community college, and it was a class called Professional Practices.

00:02:18:15 - 00:02:52:18
Unknown
So this is a class where the students who are learning about digital media learn about business and interacting with customers or interacting with the public about their work. And so at the time, I was producing websites and I was a WordPress developer pretty extensively around that time. And so I was sharing project briefs, comps, code that worked and didn't work, timesheets that went awry where I lost thousands of dollars because I didn't get a job.

00:02:52:18 - 00:03:23:22
Unknown
Right. And so I was just completely upfront and honest about everything that I was wrestling with. And a student came up to me at the time and just said, hey, I wish you had a platform outside of class that more people could interact with you on this stuff. And I think it was just the perfect timing for that, because after that comment, I launched my first newsletter in April of 2016, and then in June of 2016, I launched Getting Work to Work.

00:03:24:00 - 00:03:51:14
Unknown
And it was just, you know, I think just that perfect storm. So you produced over 800 episodes and in the intro Darren said 900 now almost 900. Eventually in a year. In a year. How do you keep from burning out. You know like and I mean that's a lot of episodes. And also how do you make time to dream because I feel like that's part of the process.

00:03:51:16 - 00:04:23:16
Unknown
The problem, Heather, is I don't prevent burnout from happening. It is something that it happens every couple of years now, and that I just pour myself into these projects, and it has a way of just revealing what I need to let go of, what I need to focus on, and what is no longer serving me. And it's kind of weird because I think the conversation around burnout is, you know, we need to prevent it from happening.

00:04:23:18 - 00:04:47:08
Unknown
But I think it's it's like, well now what is it trying to tell you. What is it trying to teach you. And I think this last round of burnout was more instructive than I thought it was going to be, because it, because it was just like I came out the other side of it, a completely changed person, and that I was able to kind of focus on what I wanted to focus on.

00:04:47:08 - 00:05:18:12
Unknown
Finally, like the things that I had been talking about wanting to do for years and years, even decades. Like, I feel more comfortable doing that now. What was the shift that allowed that? I think the shift was twofold. One is that it was a really humbling moment in last year where I had to, like, go back to a job that I was at because I couldn't land anything else.

00:05:18:13 - 00:05:45:01
Unknown
Like last year, I was struggling with grief. I was struggling with boredom, burnout. I couldn't sell my work anymore. And when when you're a small business owner and you can't sell, you got a problem. You're gonna have some problems paying your bills at that point. So I couldn't land a job. And so I actually called the hiring manager or the HR representative at Home Depot.

00:05:45:03 - 00:06:06:15
Unknown
That was local to me. I had work there before I left after four months, and I went back and said, hey, is there any opportunity to come back? And that was a pretty humbling offer. Like, it was very humbling to do that. Because then you have to tell the story of why are you here again? What happened?

00:06:06:17 - 00:06:28:11
Unknown
Oh, wow. And and that starts to clarify in your mind that story of burnout, the story of I was doing things I didn't really want to be doing. But then, you know, fast forward to, like, last month when I was doing my taxes for this. This past year, I realized thanks weren't as bad as I thought they were.

00:06:28:13 - 00:06:53:09
Unknown
And so it wasn't really my business that there was the problem. I was the problem. I had some things that I needed to learn. And so working, you know, at Home Depot, that was kind of the, I guess, playground to to learn an important thing about me that I hadn't really realized. Were there specific indicators that burnout was coming?

00:06:53:14 - 00:07:18:00
Unknown
Or were you just kind of in it all of a sudden? Oh, yeah. There were very clear indicators. I love to read, and I just stopped reading. I couldn't pick up a book and focus for more than a minute or two. And so that was a very clear indicator that something was wrong. And then I just, I didn't enjoy watching movies.

00:07:18:02 - 00:07:47:05
Unknown
I was just kind of numbing myself in other areas and work just I started getting mad at clients not to not directly with them, but kind of behind the scenes. And again, that's not a really good recipe when you're running a business. Oh no, no it's not. So now that you're kind of on the other side of this, what are your goals currently?

00:07:47:05 - 00:08:15:04
Unknown
And are you still working with getting work to work or are you on a break or. Oh, definitely not on a break. Around October of last year. So in June, I think it was June or July of last year, I paused everything. Because I don't just, produce getting work to work. I have, like, 5 or 6 other side projects, from newsletters to a second podcast called Beyond Your Imagination.

00:08:15:06 - 00:08:45:18
Unknown
And so I just I just paused everything and then in October I felt that creativity starting to rise up again. The desire to say something and I think November of 2020 for like most people was a very catalytic moment. And as to where I remember clearly just going, okay, I, I have a voice, I have a platform.

00:08:45:20 - 00:09:23:04
Unknown
I have things that I want to say, and it's, you know, starting next year, I'm going to start saying them again. And I and I think that's kind of where I'm at today. Like just learning how to spread a message of hopefulness. Of being a help to people that creativity can build community. And yeah, you know, there's, there's, there's things going on in the world that demand our focus, but there's also things that don't make the headlines because, you know, anger rises to the top.

00:09:23:04 - 00:09:53:13
Unknown
Not hope, not helpfulness, not enjoyment. So I think those would be my goals is to share that message of just like, hey we can we can use creativity for good. We can we can create projects that might not make a ton of money, but can actually make an impact on people's lives. We can we can actually enjoy our work without feeling like we need to work all the time.

00:09:53:15 - 00:10:28:11
Unknown
Yeah, that's that's super important. Also, I think it's not black and white. You know, you can put your focus. You can be aware of what's happening that's difficult, but you can also continue to be a positive influence. I think there's sort of a lot of binary thinking that's happening right now. Speaking of that, we were talking about a logo redesign right before we went live, and you actually said when people put more emphasis on a logo than what's happening, we have a problem.

00:10:28:11 - 00:10:55:07
Unknown
Can you speak to that a little bit? Well, like most people, whenever a giant corporation changes their logo, there's inevitably, you know, the discourse around it. So people talking about why are you making this change? And then you've got the logo designers who start making their own redesigns. And I think Travis Knight's was the best one, where he took Nozpheratu and that death metal logo for Cracker Barrel.

00:10:55:09 - 00:11:23:09
Unknown
I'm like, this is great, but but I think, you know, when when we are more upset with Cracker Barrel changing their logo than a school shooting in Minneapolis. Yeah, we've got some reflection to do as a society, as as individuals. I it's not that I don't think people care. It's just they're rewarded for talking about Cracker Barrel. The algorithms reward them.

00:11:23:11 - 00:11:50:11
Unknown
The, you know, the bots reward them, the systems reward them for things that ultimately don't matter. I mean, the Cracker Barrel, you know, stock price did go up after they changed. But again, you know, I guess my who cares? It's Cracker Barrel. Yeah. Granted, I've never eaten there. I think there's one in the West Coast, but, you know, it's just I don't know.

00:11:50:11 - 00:12:18:21
Unknown
Who cares? There's there's just so many other things to care about. And and I. Cracker barrel is not, you know, unique here. It's it's happened every time a change has happened and and I think it's just easy. I also think sometimes you know we get so addicted to the algorithm or what we see. It even gets in our subconscious and starts to mess with our identity or what we think is important.

00:12:18:23 - 00:12:46:05
Unknown
Oh yeah. Speaking of, you have a book coming out. The way you say that, it sounds so like for sure. Well, maybe it's really for sure. Now. So this book coming out is a memoir, and it's all about curiosity. And speaking about identity and the way we're responding to things in the world and how important curiosity is.

00:12:46:05 - 00:13:17:01
Unknown
Can you speak to why you're writing this book and why curiosity is so important? Curiosity is important because when you're around people who are curious, you recognize how small their life is, and that's not a complete judgment of them or their life. But when you talk about the same thing with the same people over and over again. It just kind of gets dull.

00:13:17:03 - 00:13:46:07
Unknown
Life kind of loses its luster. And so for me, curiosity is one of those things where I want to be like my 90 plus year old grandma who was laying in bed one night because she was wondering how Oreo cookies were made and she wasn't the most curious person. But I will hold on to that idea for a long time because, you know, then I had like, well, let me show you.

00:13:46:07 - 00:14:11:10
Unknown
I'll find a video on YouTube. And she's like, what is that? You know, and it's just like, I think there's that, that joy and curiosity that says, what is that? Not in a that's the devil on your hand. You know, this idea of technology, you know, being some demonic force or something, but this idea that there's something good in there that we can learn.

00:14:11:12 - 00:14:32:14
Unknown
So the book was this idea of there's never enough written about curiosity, in my opinion. And so the adage of writing what you want to read, I guess, is true. I wanted to read more about curiosity. I wanted to share some stories in my life that I hadn't really shared before, and I wanted to reflect on them too.

00:14:32:15 - 00:15:11:09
Unknown
So I like to tell the story that I dropped out of college to be in a rock band, but I like to think about all the times before I dropped out, what life was like then living up in Seattle, away from home for the first time in a big city. I mean, sales, pretty big city for me growing up in the country, but, you know, being able to to explore those topics, I think would be good for me and maybe for someone else, too, because the subtitle to the book that I'm kind of sitting on right now is Finding Curiosity in an Ordinary Life.

00:15:11:11 - 00:15:43:07
Unknown
So many memoirs are just I mean, the stories are just unreal. You read about these these stories of people who have gone through horrendous things. I haven't really been through anything horrendous. What what gives me the the license to write a book, because my life is pretty ordinary compared to some of these memoirs I've read. And I and I think that's where I've kind of landed on this like, no, it's okay to have an ordinary life and to find those curious things and moments.

00:15:43:09 - 00:16:10:22
Unknown
And they're that lead to something magical and exciting. So speaking of that, you have these monologues on getting work to work, which are one of my most favorite things, where you're doing just that, it's sort of like the audio version or the lead up to this book. Yeah. So I'd like to hear about your thoughts on running a podcast in a production studio.

00:16:10:23 - 00:16:39:00
Unknown
And you had this monologue called bored With I, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Well, it's funny because AI is everywhere, and and so there's always, always this discourse around I have like, if you're not adopting it, you're going to be left behind. And I think at one point, I think it was the Sam Altman interview where he talked about, you know, his kids will never be smarter than I.

00:16:39:01 - 00:17:09:19
Unknown
Yeah. And and I just kind of sat with that for a little bit. And it really prompted this monologue. And I think there was something in that article that I read that talked about, we're living in the Jurassic era, of technology. And so I just started the episode talking about, hey, fellow dinosaurs kind of making light of the fact that we're, you know, we're we're treating people as if they're obsolete, if they don't do certain things.

00:17:09:21 - 00:17:38:12
Unknown
Yes. And, so that's kind of the the genesis of that particular monologue. You say if AI is being added to everything, to every system, at what point does it become more like high fructose corn sirup than sugar? Artificial, cheap and addictive? I like to write things that make me laugh and and so. Or even make me like, chuckle or think.

00:17:38:14 - 00:18:05:20
Unknown
And I and I just thought about AI being added to everything. And so, you know, I read the labels like most people. Not that it really helps, too much nutritionally speaking, but like, at what point did sugar move to high fructose corn sirup? It's usually because sugar becomes too expensive. And so they have to find something cheaper so that they can make more profit.

00:18:05:22 - 00:18:27:10
Unknown
And I think thinking on this quote, I think we're in the sugar phase of AI. It's like, yeah, it's great. You know, we're going to get people hopped up on the taste, on the interactivity, on on the expectation. But then at some point, the companies aren't going to make enough money. And so they're going to switch the ingredients so they can make more money.

00:18:27:12 - 00:18:55:02
Unknown
But we won't really care because we're locked into these systems. And and I just think, yeah, our tastes are going to change. Some people will boycott. They always do. But the question then becomes will we be too addicted to do anything about it. Will society be too reliant upon system wide implementations of AI to do anything about it?

00:18:55:04 - 00:19:18:11
Unknown
And I actually saw a headline on LinkedIn a couple of days ago where I talked about AI is propping up the economy right now, and in terms of spending and in terms of keeping it afloat. And you know that that's going to be a pretty interesting bubble one day when that decides to pop. Wow. Wow. That's not to be a downer.

00:19:18:11 - 00:19:45:15
Unknown
Sorry. No no no no. It's fine. I have another question. I was also going through all of your monologues and pulled out another favorite. And one of them, you said the reason you took a break to heal your creativity. And this is so important because last year and this year, the creative industry is struggling so much.

00:19:45:17 - 00:20:05:01
Unknown
On top of the burnout, you're experiencing. You talk about your hibernation and you say, I grabbed a hammer and finished shattering the broken pieces. Can you talk about that process?

00:20:05:03 - 00:20:38:14
Unknown
I think the world can break us down, but it never fully breaks us. I mean, it unfortunately breaks some people irreparably. But I think I was just broken to the point where there wasn't, there was nothing coming around it to just complete the shatter. And I think part of being able to just shatter it completely was to go back to that humility, being humbled and going back to the hiring manager and saying, can I come back?

00:20:38:16 - 00:21:06:14
Unknown
But it was also recognizing that no, I'm I'm okay. Like you can, you can go after these things that you want to do. You can become someone new. You don't have to rely upon explaining yourself as to who you are, why you wanted to do this and why it didn't work out. I guess it was this I get to rewrite the narrative once you shatter, because then you can be like, oh, I like this little piece over here.

00:21:06:14 - 00:21:27:18
Unknown
I like this little piece over here. Maybe I confuse them together into something new. I think it comes down to identity. By that final blow with the hammer, I was able to kind of shatter my identity and I have a lot more peace about who I am now than I did last year. Wow.

00:21:27:20 - 00:21:52:04
Unknown
So, given that process that you just went through, what are you working on? What's your goal? Where do you want to go from here as you're kind of starting in a different place? And we were speaking right before this podcast about the climate we're living in. It's kind of, for both of us, creating a certain internal reaction.

00:21:52:04 - 00:22:18:19
Unknown
I would love to hear more about that. One of the biggest things that I learned when I was kind of in hibernation was that I had been neglecting a core part of who I was. So I, I'm someone who's very cerebral, so I'm constantly using my mind. I'm trying to like, think through things, create things. But from that intellectual standpoint.

00:22:18:21 - 00:22:41:04
Unknown
But then there's also the feeling part. So I care deeply about things. I care deeply about people. And when I was at Home Depot, you know, the best thing that I did was learn how to drive a forklift. Oh, wow. And and learn how to work with my hands. And what I realized was that was a part of me that was missing.

00:22:41:06 - 00:23:23:12
Unknown
And and so now I'm. I don't know if goal's the right word, but I'm I'm learning. I'm in this evolutionary phase of learning how to combine those three areas of heart, head and hand so that I can feel more, complete as opposed to feeling like I can only, you know, be two of the three things. You know, I'm hearing that so much right now that a lot of people are wanting to work with their hands, and I feel like it's a reaction to the hyper technology that's coming in where we're wanting to reclaim what's human.

00:23:23:14 - 00:23:50:06
Unknown
And there is something about the way we're wired in our brain where this tactile sense feels so good to us. I agree. So given that you're moving into this new era with heart head in hand, how do you see yourself moving forward? Are you going to continue working with your hands? Are you going to make things?

00:23:50:06 - 00:24:13:22
Unknown
Are you going to, move into a different phase of your podcast? Are you going to interview different guests? What are your goals? I think the nice thing about getting work to work is that it evolves when I have off. So if you listen to the very first part of the show, it was very much from that lens of I was kind of a used car salesman.

00:24:13:23 - 00:24:36:13
Unknown
That's how I feel when I listen to the show. In the beginning, because I had like, I had to project this voice to that, and I'm just like, whereas now I it's more me, I guess, for lack of better words, if I'm more able to share where I'm at today. Whereas then I was sharing where I was at then I felt like I had to project a certain thing.

00:24:36:15 - 00:24:58:22
Unknown
And so, yeah, I would be more than happy to talk with people who work with their hands. They interview a lot differently than people who just read a book and need to sell it. And that's not that's no judgment on the people who just read a book and then to sell it. It's just there's a lot more.

00:24:59:00 - 00:25:32:03
Unknown
It's harder to describe sometimes the work that they do with their hands and what it means. Yeah. That makes perfect sense because it's a totally different process. Go ahead. Sorry. So, when you were growing up and you dropped out of college and you wanted to be in a rock band. Yes. Can you talk about your growing up process, what kind of band that was and how you ended up teaching at the college in the first place?

00:25:32:08 - 00:25:58:17
Unknown
Oh my gosh, those are like three evolutions all in one story. I started playing guitar when I was 16 years old. Before that, I played trumpet. So in middle school, I started playing trumpet. I don't know why I picked trumpet, but I did, and let's just say Black Sabbath's Iron Man does not sound as cool on a trumpet.

00:25:58:19 - 00:26:21:21
Unknown
And so I think that's where I picked up the guitar, and I just I'm I'm completely self-taught. What I did was, you know, I grew up out in the country. I was a latchkey kid. Single mom. She worked, obviously don't take care of the family. And so I was just often in my room alone. I would have headphones, over a set of earbuds.

00:26:21:21 - 00:26:45:08
Unknown
So the. The earbuds was connected to my Discman. My headphones was connected to my guitar processor. Because when you're learning how to play guitar, it sounds like a cat just went into the garbage disposal and your parent is tired, does not want to hear you trying to play Iron Man on the guitar or whatever it is I was trying to learn at the time.

00:26:45:10 - 00:27:15:20
Unknown
And and so, guitar technology has gotten a lot better today. I think kids growing up today can really sound amazing pretty quickly, whereas then it's just like, oh, this is horrible. So when I went to college up in Seattle, I went to the University of Washington because in my mind, the goal was, I'm going to be a rich computer scientist working at Microsoft, playing racquetball with Bill gates.

00:27:15:21 - 00:27:36:00
Unknown
Why? I don't know, this is just the story. I weaved in my head. I had started to build web pages. And so this is the late 90s. I was a remote worker. Interestingly enough. My first job was in battleground Washington, and the guy's like, hey, if you want to keep working up when you're at school, that's fine with me.

00:27:36:02 - 00:28:02:12
Unknown
So it was a remote job, which was cool. And quickly I learned that I wasn't prepared for school. And so I wasn't prepared for the studious nature of what it took to be a computer scientist in the early 2000s. And so I went from, computer science to business to art. And the reason I chose business because it seemed like a logical.

00:28:02:12 - 00:28:30:13
Unknown
I'll learn accounting, I learned microeconomics. I learned that this put me to sleep. And so then I'm like, well I guess I can do art. And I took a quarter of art classes and then the opportunity arose to join the band and when I listened back to the album it was a prog band. You wouldn't call it a prog band then, but when I hear it I hear rush, I hear LED Zeppelin.

00:28:30:13 - 00:28:51:08
Unknown
I hear a lot of prog influence. I even hear prog influence in my own playing, even though I didn't listen to prog. But I hear that through my lens now because I listened to a lot of Prague, thanks to Barry, who's in the the chat here, but, but what's but what was cool was just being able to hear how I was influenced.

00:28:51:10 - 00:29:22:15
Unknown
But it didn't last long. And so after that band kind of fizzled and fell apart, I moved back home. Then I went back to art school, worked for a season, and then went back to, college. Now, wait, I even get confused. My own story. But yeah, there's this a lot of I just followed where things came and eventually in 2012, ten years after finishing college, I decided I'd get a master's degree.

00:29:22:17 - 00:29:45:17
Unknown
And then that master's degree led to, At the time, I was working on a series called Innovators of Vancouver, which was an online documentary series about people in the community. And it came across the desk of the college, and they were looking for someone to teach a certain class, and they're like, oh, hey, are you interested? I'm like, I've never taught before.

00:29:45:19 - 00:30:14:11
Unknown
And they just said, well, this is the opportunity. Does it sound interesting? Oh, and by the way, it starts in two weeks. Oh, wow. And at the time, it was a flash class. And I at the time I had been developing flash games for training purposes at Boeing in Portland. And, and so it was pretty fun to then teach flash and flash programing to students.

00:30:14:13 - 00:30:41:22
Unknown
So that was my first class teaching. Wow, that is an incredible journey. Wow. So, I want to back up to the video part of your career. You and I had a conversation a few years ago. I think it was on clubhouse, and we were talking about jealousy. Oh, God. Jealousy. Jealousy. Oh. And it's every day we went deep into this.

00:30:41:22 - 00:31:15:21
Unknown
And you spoke about a particular moment in your video career where you experienced jealousy. I would love to hear your thoughts on this. I, I am kind of embarrassed to admit, but I struggle with jealousy probably every day. Like I, I see people who just launch a podcast and they get all the accolades and, and they have no problem wearing the label podcaster and like it's taken me nine years to like feel like I'm a podcaster.

00:31:15:21 - 00:31:42:01
Unknown
I'm so happy for you. But I'm also jealous of you. Jealousy is really hard because I think social media makes it really easy to get jealous of other people. When we when we see what they are presenting, what they're projecting. And I'm like I'm not worthy of that. Was there a particular story. Because I feel like there's something specifically you want me to get out.

00:31:42:01 - 00:32:10:21
Unknown
But I, I'm just like dancing around it. There was a famous filmmaker who you worked with. But somebody else ended up getting the job that you wanted. So desperately. Wow. Who was the famous filmmaker? The the name. Oh, no, I remember now. Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. In 2012, I actually went to Haiti. Yes, this is the one.

00:32:10:22 - 00:32:33:14
Unknown
And I was hired to tell the story of this orphanage that this church was building. And you know it, it's at the time what I really wanted to do, I wanted to travel and tell stories and, you know, another example of telling people what you want to do. This pastor at this church we were at at the time overheard me say that.

00:32:33:14 - 00:33:03:02
Unknown
And he's like, are you serious? I'm like, yep. It's like, we can make that happen. Like, cool. Well, the year before this cinematographer went and he was a lot different of a person than I am. Like he was like hiring cab drivers to take him to places that would get him the shot. And I understand this this this drive like I understand that.

00:33:03:02 - 00:33:29:16
Unknown
But that's not me. Like I'm the type of person that goes where the people are, fly on the wall and kind of find the story with them. Whereas for him, it was about these, these moments of visual interest. And, you know, the rules don't apply to me. And when I showed up the year later, they treated me like I was going to be like him.

00:33:29:18 - 00:34:01:20
Unknown
And so they locked down on what I was able to do. But at the same time, I felt that the expectation was that I was going to do exactly what he did. And and so everything that I did on that trip was through that lens of is this good enough compared to what this person did. And fast forward this person would end up working with James Cameron and and I'm and I'm, I have no desire to work with James Cameron at zero.

00:34:01:22 - 00:34:25:19
Unknown
But at the same time it's just like but but you know that is that the real expectation that they have for me to be on this level of someone who could work with James Cameron? Or can I just be myself? And I don't know if I could have been myself, because honestly, at that time, I didn't really know who I was.

00:34:25:21 - 00:34:51:10
Unknown
Wow. Whereas if I were to go as I am today. I would have just been like, I don't care. I'm not going to do what that person did. I'm going to go find the story through what is deemed safe and appropriate through this organization that is housing me. I'm not going to be a jerk about it. Not saying he was a jerk about it, but you can read between the lines pretty quickly.

00:34:51:14 - 00:35:13:08
Unknown
How with how people treat you to. So we are at 1235 right now. I would like to prompt people, if you have any questions for Chris. You're welcome to put it in the chat. I'm going to ask him one more question and then I will go through your questions. At that time, you're also welcome to turn your camera on.

00:35:13:08 - 00:35:35:05
Unknown
Barry, if you'd like to speak to Chris directly. I'm just burning through your questions. You are. But we're still. We're right on track. Good. My last question for you is, right now. What are you reading? What are you listening to? Oh, my gosh, this is going to be the longest answer. So I wrote these down and I brought props.

00:35:35:10 - 00:36:02:06
Unknown
Oh. So in terms of what I'm reading. I'm reading this, this book called It Can't Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis. It was written in 1935. And as the back of the book says, and it can't happen here, Sinclair Lewis crafts a chilling tale of a populist demagogue who rises to power in America, transforming the nation into a fascist dictatorship.

00:36:02:08 - 00:36:31:00
Unknown
This classic novel serves as a timeless warning about the fragility of democracy and the dangers of complacency in the face of tyranny. Brown. So that's that's a light read. I was like, when I go to sleep, this this book is called Future Tense. Oh, and it's, subtitle How We Made Artificial Intelligence and How it Will Change Everything, by Martha Brock and bro.

00:36:31:02 - 00:36:40:06
Unknown
Since writing the board with. I thought maybe I should learn a little bit more about AI.

00:36:40:08 - 00:37:09:01
Unknown
So that was, that was that journey. This is a magazine called We Are Makers. It's a publication out of the UK. And it's just awesome articles about people making things with their hands around the world. Wow. I've been a subscriber of theirs for two years now. And it's just, it feels good to like, support independent publications.

00:37:09:03 - 00:37:34:15
Unknown
And I love the smell of it when it shows up. It definitely smells like a, independent magazine. Another magazine that I'm loving is this new one called Art bar. It's brand new out of LA. And they have the best mission statement ever. It says where's the line that I love.

00:37:34:17 - 00:38:03:04
Unknown
Art bar is your handbook for the art life and your friend for the end of the world. And then finally, another one that I picked out was the why and how of woodworking. Oh, I have that book. A simple approach to making meaningful work. Yeah. So that is a nutshell of what I'm reading in terms of what I'm listening to.

00:38:03:06 - 00:38:32:05
Unknown
The podcasts that I'm really enjoying right now is called the Creative Slash Podcast. It's a new show with Brad Woodard and Dustin Lee. Dustin Lee is the owner of Retro Supply Co. And so they talk about just not just like what we do, but the slashes in between what we do. Which is in line with my thinking because I'm much more interested in being slashes as opposed to being one thing.

00:38:32:07 - 00:39:03:19
Unknown
People are always like if you could pick one thing and do it wrong question. I would much rather just be all of the things as opposed to being one of the things. I mean, to. All right. Well, we've got some questions here for you, Chris. Nice dig in. So Darren says, as someone obsessed with curiosity, how do you recognize when curiosity is guiding you and having a positive impact versus when it's distracting you?

00:39:03:21 - 00:39:43:08
Unknown
Do you have any practices or habits that help you break free from distracting curiosity? I guess the first question I have would be what would be a distracting curiosity? I think curiosity is always a distraction. It's just there's just some times when I just feel that I have to go do this thing. Like, if I get an idea for a monologue or if I get an idea for a project and it just won't go away, eventually I have to push everything else away and go do it.

00:39:43:10 - 00:40:04:14
Unknown
Or get it to a form to where I can, like, get it out of my head and go do it. So I don't know if I recognize when it's guiding me for a positive impact, because I don't know if I really think about it, about it as positive or negative anymore. I just think about it. Do I have time for this right now?

00:40:04:16 - 00:40:27:04
Unknown
Or is is this a today thing or tomorrow thing? And but then there's this sometimes where I'm just like, I need to get out of here and just go do something. I get, you know, like, what's the difference? I can feel it in my mind when I just need to break free. Like when I'm too regimented.

00:40:27:06 - 00:40:48:09
Unknown
Like when I. When I have too many things written down on my task list, or. Or if I've worked too much. That's the thing about burnout is it made me realize how I know when I'm doing too much because I just feel crispy. Or if I or I feel like I just need to sit down. It's usually a good sign to.

00:40:48:09 - 00:41:21:18
Unknown
If I apologize to my wife for being lazy. Because then immediately she's like, you're just being a human right now. So it's it's one of those things where I think it's kind of how. It's kind of how I feel sometimes it's just like, if I feel like I'm being lazy, that's a good indicator that that maybe I need a break from curiosity or just need to let to sit with it.

00:41:21:20 - 00:41:51:04
Unknown
I don't know if I'm if I'm responding clearly. I think that's crystal clear. I also think there's such a stigma around laziness. I think that's a real problem for creative people, because I don't know about you, but I need space to be able to be creative. Yes. If you were to give some advice to people just starting out in the creative field around laziness process.

00:41:51:06 - 00:41:57:23
Unknown
Starting a podcast, what would it be?

00:41:58:01 - 00:42:20:03
Unknown
I actually do you give this advice to people? Make the show you want to make. Don't make the one you think other people want to listen to. And I know that goes against all the advice that other people say, because a lot of people say, you know, if you're not figuring out what people want and giving it to them, you're not going to make it.

00:42:20:05 - 00:42:46:04
Unknown
Whether it's a business or a project or I don't think you're going to make it if you just do what other people, what you think people want you to do. And so, I think be lazy. Be a provocateur. I like how you describe Stefan Sagmeister that way. You know, do things that people won't expect. Don't be on social media.

00:42:46:05 - 00:43:14:20
Unknown
Don't use AI. Use AI. Be on social media. Have some agency about who you are and what you want to do, because that's what you want to do, as opposed to following some script or some rule that says you have to do that. I love that. I've got a question here from Barry. He says, hey, Chris, you've worked at an amazing array of different jobs and tasks and creative outlets over the years.

00:43:14:22 - 00:43:43:04
Unknown
What are some of the projects that you felt the best about, whether paid or unpaid, or the stuff you've done just for yourself? Also, did you think of Cosmic Cathedral? Okay, I'll start with Cosmic Cathedral. So one of my favorite musicians, his name is Neil Morse and he is an amazing example of what creativity from an independent standpoint looks like.

00:43:43:06 - 00:44:08:08
Unknown
So, you know, in his 40s, he lands his first record deal with a band called Spock's Beard. He finds God leaves the band because he doesn't want to impose his beliefs on the band members. And he creates this amazing career of music, this amazing catalog. He had a great working relationship with a drummer named Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater.

00:44:08:10 - 00:44:39:20
Unknown
And when and I think it was 2013, Mike Leaf's Dream Theater for a season creates all this great music with Neil Morse. Mike gets back into Dream Theater, and now Neil's like, oh man, what am I going to do now? So he creates these side projects, these groups with people and cosmic cathedrals. One of them. It's fantastic. And what I love about it is, it's it's a little bit more jazzy, more improvizational, as opposed to very formulaic.

00:44:39:22 - 00:45:07:01
Unknown
And so it's great reminder, Barry, to go listen to it again. Thank you. But yeah, in terms of projects that I felt the best about, you know, I mentioned the Innovators of Vancouver project, and that was one where 2010 was a much different time. Like we look at docu series now, it's like, oh, everyone's doing them.

00:45:07:03 - 00:45:33:06
Unknown
You know, everyone's got a camera and can make a documentary about something. In 2010, it was a little different. You know, you were still watching things on cable. You were less watching them on YouTube. And so I was highly inspired by Sundance channels. Iconic show. And and so that that created the inspiration for that. Documentary series.

00:45:33:06 - 00:45:59:11
Unknown
I was going to say podcast. But I was really proud of that because I did I think about 13 episodes over a period of six years. And it, it just when I go back and look at them, they're rough. They're raw. And that's where I was at the time. So I'm really proud of that. I loved working with my friend Barry on a logo project.

00:45:59:13 - 00:46:25:05
Unknown
I think it was last year or the year before, I can't. Time is an illusion. But it was fun working with him on it. Got to do some cool lightning bolt designs. Oh, I love me some lightning bolt designs. I just so I love helping people, too. So, like, I've been helping my mom at farmers markets and so she'll talk to people and they're like, oh, my son can help you.

00:46:25:07 - 00:46:45:04
Unknown
And I so this lady lost her domain name, lost her website. So I got I helped her out this week just getting her website back on line kind of getting it to a form that that could prepare her for the future if she wanted to do online commerce. So I like doing stuff like that where I didn't even ask for any money.

00:46:45:04 - 00:47:13:13
Unknown
I just said, I'm happy to help you. So I have one final closing question. And then, I would love for you to tell us where we can find you, where we can find your book. What? Where people can find your podcast, but also your writing. So my final question to you is, now that you've gone through this really intense process over the last couple of years, and I know you're not alone.

00:47:13:13 - 00:47:44:00
Unknown
A lot of creative people are really in the mix with this. What is your voice now? How are you going to speak out to the world? And what's your message? I came across the line in one of the monologues recently where I said, I'm not trying to get lessons. I'm trying to have a point. And I think that's where my voice is.

00:47:44:02 - 00:48:12:11
Unknown
If one person hears it and resonates, that's enough for me. And I think that's, that's really what I'm trying to get at is just share that so that I can help even just one person. I don't need a giant platform. I don't want to go viral. I just I just want to be someone who at the end of my life, at least one person will say, yeah, Chris, he was a great guy.

00:48:12:13 - 00:48:39:04
Unknown
I learned a lot from him. He helped me do X or Y and, I don't know, I think a lot about that because I think so often I spend my time in the past wanting to, like, have enough money or have enough, accolades. Whereas now I'm just kind of like, okay that's cool. Whatever. It's not that I don't care.

00:48:39:06 - 00:49:06:02
Unknown
It's just it's I'm more interested in just being, I guess I would say that's beautiful. All right. Chris Martin, so can you please tell people where they can find your gorgeous podcast, your wonderful musings, your writing and your upcoming book? So I'll start with the website. So I use Chris martin.com. I bought that in 1998 and have held on to it since.

00:49:06:04 - 00:49:31:20
Unknown
And that's kind of my writing platform that I'm turning it into. So I've, I've blogged on that platform since 2007. So you can you can read some of my early writings about business and creativity there. And I and I occasionally go back and post on there, but it's it's not as consistent as I think the gurus would want me to be.

00:49:31:22 - 00:49:57:15
Unknown
And that will link to the newsletter that I have there for Chris Martin writes, which is kind of like my writing and poetry, platform on Substack. I mentioned Substack, but you know, like every thing on the internet, it's transitory. Like, I don't know if I'll be there in a year. Who knows what happens to Substack in the next year, because there's a lot of hate around it and on it.

00:49:57:19 - 00:50:30:03
Unknown
So it'll be interesting to see where I end up any year on that. I think instead, if I were to put on my hat of forward thinking, I might just go back to a web based approach building my own website as opposed to building on someone else's platform. So Chris martin.com will lead you to down that stretch of being Chris Martin studios.com is my company's website.

00:50:30:05 - 00:51:01:19
Unknown
And so that is podcast video production that kind of thing. And I have a newsletter connected to that that's called Chris Martin studios.substack.com. And that is use Your effing voice is the kind of, I guess, message that I had this year for people. So every week I write about a different theme, or every month I write about a theme, and then each week I can dive into that topic.

00:51:01:19 - 00:51:27:01
Unknown
So this month has been all about courage. So the the first week was about courage itself. Second week values and courage. Number three, week three was courage and systems. And then fourth was just examples of courage that I found in the things that I was reading. So that's kind of that road and then getting work to work.com is that podcast.

00:51:27:02 - 00:51:55:18
Unknown
You can find the most recent 75 episodes, wherever you listen to podcasts. About five years ago, I ran into the limit of RSS feeds to where Apple was like, hey, we can't actually load this fast enough. So I guess you're going to have to figure something out. And so I just limited it to 75. But I have all 844 episodes on getting work to work.com.

00:51:55:20 - 00:52:32:11
Unknown
And I also have a short code, you know, short URL so that if you have gwt.com/episode number. So like w.com/8 44 for example will automatically redirect to that episode. Okay. And where can we find your book or do you have a goal date. I have on Chris martin.com. There is a page for that. And it also links to some of episodes of Getting Work to work where I read sections of the book.

00:52:32:13 - 00:52:52:12
Unknown
So there are episodes of the podcast that I've I've shared the book, I have a little post on my wall saying, Monday, September 1st, 2025 is when I wanted to get it out. And then the question, have you worked on it today? And the question was, I have not worked on it since I put that on my wall.

00:52:52:14 - 00:53:14:21
Unknown
I have a lot of fear around it. It's, I usually don't have a problem releasing things, but for some reason, I'm all up in my head around this project. It's not that I am afraid of it. There's just something about it that maybe it's not time yet, or even though a friend of mine emails me constantly, says I'm ready to buy it.

00:53:14:21 - 00:53:45:08
Unknown
Where is it? So. Okay, well, we'll be watching for that. And I also would just like to take a moment to, give you a shout out. Your platform is incredible. It's a deep it's rich, it's thoughtful. If you have not listened to getting work to work, I really encourage you to check it out. Chris has monologues have meant so much to me and some of my darkest times, and he has helped me and taught me so much.

00:53:45:10 - 00:54:12:08
Unknown
The Chris Martin, thank you so much for being with us on this podcast. You are so talented and so lovely. Oh thank you. That means a lot. All right, everybody, that's a wrap. Thank you so much for joining us again on getting work. Work to work getting work to work on the Developing Life podcast with Chris Martin, an incredible, incredible human.